Concerned over Backpressure by Adding a CSV Valve to Existing System

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LLigetfa

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If the pump and tank were properly sized in the first place a CSV will have little if any effect on either the longevity or the cost of operation.
I'm sure everyone has a crystal ball and knows how to size a pump for every home and for every season. Then there is still the variable versus constant pressure which you have not addressed.

What sort of micronizer wont take a high pressure?
My micronizer relies on a certain volume to be forced through a tiny venturi in order to create a vacuum to suck in air. The greater the pressure, the less the differential across the venturi and so the less vacuum. As much as I would like to have 70 PSI in the house, at that pressure the micronizer doesn't suck air. The brand happens to be Waterite.

OK, so you say you don't try to discredit, so then you seem overly concerned about how people spend a couple hundred bucks. IMHO it is money well spent and better than spending it on bigger tanks which only prolong the variable pressure. Some folk claim they can't even notice the 20 PSI spread on a standard pressure switch, but I certainly can.
 

Tom Sawyer

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OK so I will. Let's say you have 20 gallons of water stored at 60psi and you open a faucet. Your pressure switch is set to come on at 40 psi (20psi delta p) So you get a 20 lb drop in pressure but you will never notice it unless you happen to still live in the stone ages and don't have pressure balanced tub and shower valves or whoever installed the piping in your house greatly screwed the pooch when they figured pipe size calculations. If you continue to draw the water off until the low setting is reached, the pump comes on and depending on the volume of draw may continue to run until the draw is satisfied or, if the draw is low the pump will once again run the tank up to 60 lbs which does of course, constitute a "cycle" but, a CSV will do the exact same thing on a small draw and in fact, will do it more often. A CSV is a marvelous thing but it is not going to completely eliminate pump cycling. Anyway though, I'm tired of this subject. It's merits and flaws have been documented here, there and everywhere. It is IMO a viable and useful option when used under the right conditions like most any product is.
 

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“If the pump and tank were properly sized in the first place a CSV will have little if any effect on either the longevity or the cost of operation.” TS

“An "average" is quickly brought down to 7 from 20 or 30 years when we count that most people dont even know where their pressure tank is at. And fewer yet care to check on them and know how to do it right. And fewer yet know how to zone their irrigation, adjust the pressure swing accordingly, and finally, to size the pump in the first place.” BV

Sizing a pump and tank “properly” means knowing everything the home owner will do with the water. Tomorrow the owner of the home might change, decide to install a drip system, use garden hose sprinklers instead, add a shower with multiple heads, an instant water heater, or many other things the water system wasn’t “designed” for.

You can either size as best you can and hope for the best, or you can use a CSV that will take care of anything the customer wants to do. But I am tired of discussing this as well. If you don’t want to do the best job possible for your customers, then don’t use a CSV. A CSV is not nearly as important for a 3/4HP, 7 GPM as it is for a 1.5HP, 20 GPM, but the CSV benefits every size pump system.

I usually get the call after the installer has “properly sized” the pump and tank, but the system is still cycling on and off. When the customer tells me the installer never mentioned a CSV, I have to tell them that it is impossible to “properly size” for every situation, which is apparent to them by now. When they find out a CSV would have solved their problem and saved them considerable space and money by using a smaller tank, they are generally not very happy with the installer.

A pressure reducing valve after the pressure tank doesn’t come close to working like a CSV. Your pump is still cycling itself to death and the wide pressure switch bandwidth is stretching the heck out of your tank bladder numerous times. Using a PRV does prove that you like constant pressure though. A CSV would give you that constant pressure without cycling your pump and tank to death in the process.

LL I think your Micronizer can handle the high pressure, just that at 70 PSI your pump isn’t producing enough volume.
 

Ballvalve

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There is a micronizer with a very useful adjustment of venturi size, cant recall the name - actually designed for keeping air in plain tanks .... takes any pressure.

I know you dont like my 'system' but plain tanks with no bladder to stretch, no issue. Only get a stretched bladder after too much wine. And I nearly always pump to a 3000g tank and have about 1000 drawdown before the well kicks in - so that pump will go full life, and actually its on year 16 now, with no flow reduction. Pumping botttled water quality, however.

Then I typically use a several stage booster pump to feed the pressure system, which is quick to repair and I get about 4 or 5 years between start switches and cap's. A well placed three way valve lets me jump between systems for maintenance or gravity flow when the power dies, which it will do more often now that a Chinese or Iranian hacker can shut off our stupid meters. The dark ages are just a computer click away these days.
 

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Except for maybe a little water hammer, I see nothing wrong with your system. But like you said earlier, most people don’t even know where or what a pressure tank is. So when installing for the general public, you need a system that requires absolutely no maintenance and can handle any possible way water might be used. That makes “properly” sizing a pump and tank virtually impossible. You can’t “properly” size a pump and tank for a tractor sprinkler, multi-zoned heat pumps, ornamental water devices, multiple head showers, garden hose irrigation, an especially not for a combination of all the above.

For someone like you who has good mechanical abilities, checking your air charge or maintaining a certain flow rate is not a problem. But I can assure you that leaving one single detail to be taken care of by the average homeowner will result in a total system failure. They won’t check the air charge, they won’t run the correct amount of water, they won’t even fix the flapper on a leaky toilet. A pump system needs to last a long time, survive without maintenance and deliver any amount of water being used without anyone giving it a second thought. I am not saying the wife can’t understand a water system, but it still needs to be something she never has to worry about. And that is what a CSV does. It allows you to use any amount of water, anyway you want, without any maintenance. Not to mention that because it can be used with a very small tank, the CSV lowers the overall cost. It may not be absolutely necessary to use a CSV on every pump installed, but it is better to be safe than sorry.
 

Ballvalve

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Well, must admit that the CSV must be the 'watersystem for dummies' device, residentially speaking.

I have so many pipes running around this property, that I posted a huge laminated board in the main pump house showing the next pump guy the layout and troubleshooting schematic. Maybe if he's good, he can get it back on line. But some dope plumber called in by the wife would take 8 hours to just find the well, buried under gravel in a side road.

As to variable speed pumps, some excavators have for many years used pressure/flow sensors to increase hydraulic pressure when called for by the bucket. I have one with an early version, and never a blip in 10 years. Although the computer is US made and encased in epoxy and costs about 4 grand to replace. So one COULD build a nice variable speed pump, perhaps a stepper type motor, or permanent magnet dc rig, and keep speed and amps down low. But it would'nt compete well with what homeowner joe can afford, especially nowadays.
 

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Well, must admit that the CSV must be the 'watersystem for dummies' device, residentially speaking.

I have so many pipes running around this property, that I posted a huge laminated board in the main pump house showing the next pump guy the layout and troubleshooting schematic. Maybe if he's good, he can get it back on line. But some dope plumber called in by the wife would take 8 hours to just find the well, buried under gravel in a side road.


Now thats funny! I have a notebook full of plumbing diagrams, valve and switch settings, pump model numbers, etc, etc. My wife said she is not worried because the place will be sold before they get all the dirt shoveled on me.

I wouldn’t say the CSV is for “dummies”, but rather for “smart” people. People who are smart enough to know they will never understand a water system, just want everything taken care of. And that is what a CSV does.

It doesn’t surprise me that very few homeowners know anything about a pump. What surprises me is how few so-called “pump professionals” really understand what they are doing. Most of them will act like they know what they are talking about, but that doesn’t make it so. I even have to explain things to many engineers for pump manufacturers.

There are still a few good pump installers and engineers, but I bet I can count them all on my fingers. J Of course the pump manufacturers don’t want anyone to know how pumps really work. They just want you to “do what they say and don’t ask questions”.
 

vpr80

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I am a bit afraid to ask, but what is the difference between the CSV valve and a Pressure Reducing Valve (PRV?)?

Look like the same type of device to me by regulating the outflow pressure.

Thank you.

PS - I am really curious to have the conversation with my well pump installer as to (1) why a 3HP pump and (2) why no CSV type valve?
 

Ballvalve

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If the guy gave you a 3 HP pump, and you DONT have a fire sprinkler system, or live in the midst of a wildfire area and have several roof sprinklers, and you dont have a farm or large orchard, you are pretty much a victim, and will not get a good answer.

If you were trying to supress fire, you would spend a fortune on a gen-set to start that pump! 1.5 HP saved my house and saves me every time it turns on. And I irrigate several large areas and 700 grape vines.

The CSV is a PRV with a different internal design that appears to be self cleaning.
 

vpr80

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Can't say that I am really surprised. I found out a lot of things after-the-fact that the various installers did incorrectly and share valveman's assessment that most are morons and do not know what they are doing.

Not much I can do at this point, but I am thinking to install a Lakos ILB-0100 to help with the sediment coming up then the CSV1A. Should help right?
 

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That 3 HP is really not too big for a 360’ deep well. If the water level pulls down to 300’, it will only produce 15 GPM at 40 PSI. That is about the same as a 1HP in a 100’ deep well.

The problem is the water table being at 150’. No matter how deep the pump is set, when the water level is at 150’, the pump is only lifting from 150’, and then that pump will produce 35 GPM.

The well needed to be tested so you know if the water level stays at 150’, or if it pulls down to 350’. If it stays at 150’, a 1.5HP pump is all you need. If it drops to 300’, the 3HP is necessary.

Most wells don’t get tested as they should so they just use a pump big enough to lift from 300’, just in case. Then if the water level doesn’t pull down, the pump is way oversized as BV says. That is when a CSV comes in handy as it will trim a pump down to the size you need. The CSV will make a 30 GPM pump work like a 5, 10, 15, 20, 25, or whatever size pump you need.

The “different internal design” between a CSV and a PRV makes for two completely different valves. Self-cleaning has nothing to do with it.

A PRV would hold a constant pressure when using water. But a PRV would burn up a pump is installed prior to the pressure tank. It would have to be installed after the pressure tank, would let the pump continue to cycle itself to death, and does not control tank fill rate. So you can’t get a large enough pressure tank.

A CSV holds the pressure constant when using any amount of water. But it is installed prior to the pressure tank and pressure switch, keeps the pump from cycling, makes the pump last longer, and controls the fill rate of the pressure tank. So you can use a much smaller pressure tank if you want, which saves money.

I really hope you don’t need the Lakos. A well that makes sand is a problem forever. Try pumping it out hard for a few days first.

OH I jsut realized that if you put a PRV after a pressure tank, you also need an expansion tank on the water heater.
 
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vpr80

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I really hope you don’t need the Lakos. A well that makes sand is a problem forever. Try pumping it out hard for a few days first.

Can you elaborate on this please. What do you mean by pumping it hard for a few days? How do I do this with everything already up and running. Besides this was installed a year ago.

I don't know if I am using the correct terminology, but I am getting a lot of "sediment". For example, the cartridge filters come out brown full of fine dirt when changing them. The toilet tanks have a very fine particle collection on the bottom. And all the aerators have small chunks of various colors that you could pick up with your fingers. Granted there is not a lot of those, but every six months or so, I will go through the aerators and each one would have a few of those. (Side comment, those could still be in the system from before the cartridge filters were installed.)
 
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Valveman

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A properly constructed well should not make sand or sediment. The casing screen or perf and sometimes a gravel pack should make a filter out of the well itself. The pump should only see nice clean water. Of course all new wells need to be pumped out. Sometimes it takes days to pump the crud out of the screen and filter pack so the well starts making nice clean water.

If the well was not properly constructed it will always make sand. Then the best you can do is filter it, and the Lakos is really good at that. But the sand will always be a problem for the well and pump.

A good well should pump out clean and never make sand again. But you have to pump it hard. A single faucet is not good enough. You need a big pipe of water running or enough faucets open to keep the pressure below about 20 PSI.
 

LLigetfa

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A good well should pump out clean and never make sand again. But you have to pump it hard. A single faucet is not good enough. You need a big pipe of water running or enough faucets open to keep the pressure below about 20 PSI.
An oversized pump going into a large pressure tank
will emulate that for short periods and can stir up a problem well. That is because the big tank is almost like a big open pipe, allowing a high GPM rate to fill the tank.

If you have a big tank, you could narrow the 20 PSI delta on your pressure switch by using an EPS15/99 in conjuction with a CSV.

If I let my pump pull full bore, it would bring up lots of mud but my pump is flow restricted by the venturi in my micronizer.
 

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Ok my CSV1A is coming in today and I am getting it put in this weekend, but just had a question. I understand the schematics of how to plumb it, but what is the correct process of start-up? My pressure switch is currently at approx 45-65psi setting.

I tried to find some instructions on the website, but couldn't find much help. I am specifically concerned on how to adjust the CSV for start-up (assuming > 65psi) and then bring it down to approx 62-63 psi?

Thank you
 

Valveman

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Start with the adjustment bolt loosened out. Run a garden hose or anything that lets out about 3 GPM. Adjust the bolt clockwise until the pressure steadies at 62 PSI. Tighten the lock nut.
 

vpr80

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Start with the adjustment bolt loosened out. Run a garden hose or anything that lets out about 3 GPM. Adjust the bolt clockwise until the pressure steadies at 62 PSI. Tighten the lock nut.

Sorry, but I don't get how I am supposed to steady on 62psi? So I turn the water back on and the system will pressurize again to 65psi and cut off. Then I run the water out of the hose and the pressure will begin to steadily go down basically until it hits 45 psi and then cut in again. How how do I adjust the CSV to 62psi when its either draining down or very quickly filling up when the pump goes on?

Unless you mean to keep going through this cycle up and down until the CSV adjustment finally goes below 65psi and holds while the water is running out the hose?
 

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If you have 3 GPM running and the bolt on the CSV loosened out, the pump cannot build up and shut off. It will start out at about 15 PSI, and will increase as you turn the bolt clockwise until the gauge steadies at 62 PSI. Then only when yoou shut off all the faucets will it slowly build to 65 and be shut off.
 

vpr80

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That pump will build 130 psi back pressure. Should not be a problem.

The fun continues. So the plumber cancelled on Sat, but I was looking at the whole thing and another question came up.

The line that is running from the well to my tank looks like a black hard plastic 1"OD that is joined with screw clamps in several places. This doesn't seem like a very good idea if I am going to create 130psi in back pressure from the tank. So now I am thinking that instead of using the CSV1A, maybe a CSV1W at the top of the well would be a better idea.

The last thing that I need would be a rupture in the supply line that turns on the pump and fills my basement with 5 feet of water at 25 gpm :)
 
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Valveman

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Hopefully that is 160# pipe, which is rated much higher than 160#. I would be less concerned about 130 PSI back pressure from the CSV as I would watetr hammer that happens when a pump is cycling on and off at 40/60 without a CSV. But either way will work. That is one reason we make valves like the CSV1W that will fit in the well.
 
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