Commercial Steam Shower Requirements 2014 updates - Perm Ratings

Discussion in 'Shower & bathtub Forum & Blog' started by johnfrwhipple, Nov 24, 2012.

  1. johnfrwhipple

    johnfrwhipple I love these ACO Shower Drains - Best in Class

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    Top Perm Ratings for steam shower sheet membranes. - top three shown in bold


    1). 0.06 Perm - Laticrete's Hydro Ban Sheet Membrane
    2). 0.15 Perm - NobleSeal TS Noble Company's Sheet Membrane
    3). 0.15 Perm - Bronte's Sheet Membrane

    4). 0.18 Perm - Kerdi DS Schluter's sheet membrane
    5). 0.75 Perm - Kerdi Schluter's regular sheet membrane

    Today I noticed a change from Noble Company on their perm rating numbers. In the past NobleSeal TS was advertised as 0.05 now today I see it at 0.15. Still very low but it makes me wonder if all the other company's are reporting the perm ratings from the same series of test.

    This update recorded on July 20, 2014 - old posts updated here only.
    Last edited: Jul 20, 2014
  2. johnfrwhipple

    johnfrwhipple I love these ACO Shower Drains - Best in Class

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    Perm ratings need to be 0.50 Perm or less for commercial steam shower. The old requirement was listed at 1.0 or less.

    Ask yourself why that number changed? If 1.0 used to be good enough - why change it. I suspect that after years of research that number was found to be too gentile or not low enough.

    I always recommend every steam shower build be built to follow the commercial steam shower specifications....
    Last edited: Jul 20, 2014
  3. johnfrwhipple

    johnfrwhipple I love these ACO Shower Drains - Best in Class

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    Vapour Proofing & Crack Isolation: Are you getting both or just one?

    Your sheet membrane ideally will also carry an ANSI 118.12 approval. This for crack isolation. Make sure your selection does.
    Last edited: Jul 20, 2014
  4. johnfrwhipple

    johnfrwhipple I love these ACO Shower Drains - Best in Class

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    NobleSeal TS Cross section - my favourite specification drawing

    [​IMG]
    Last edited: Jul 20, 2014
  5. johnfrwhipple

    johnfrwhipple I love these ACO Shower Drains - Best in Class

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    Sheet Membranes with ANSI 118.12 Crack Isolation Ratings

    1). NobleSeal CIS
    2). NobleSeal TS
    3). Bronte

    To my knowledge none of the other sheet membranes test for this crack isolation membrane 118.12 classification.
    Last edited: Jul 20, 2014
  6. johnfrwhipple

    johnfrwhipple I love these ACO Shower Drains - Best in Class

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    Thickness of various Steam Shower Membranes - top three shown in bold

    1). 30 mil 0.030" - NobleSeal TS
    2). 30 mil 0.030" - NobleSeal CIS
    3). 30 mil 0.030" - Bronte
    4). 18 mil 0.018" - Kerdi DS
    5). _8 mil 0.008" - Kerdi


    Price per Cubic Foot

    Most times these membranes are sold by the foot or on a roll. They come in many sizes and colours. Mils are 1000's of an inch. Your drivers license is 30 mils thick or 30/1000". Understanding what your are buying should be something you take in to consideration.

    I often recommend the premium membranes because they offer up better perm ratings and a safer install against construction traffic.

    When selling items it is key to knowing what you are buying. Comparing apples to apples. If we break down these membranes into solid volume only. Length X Width X Thickness we get total volume of the order. Lets look at how this plays out. The next time you buy something and think it's cheaper - think again. You could be paying double for less material.

    To work out an example of total volume some of these products have lets look at 100 square feet of material and try and see the volume each sheet membrane has.

    Example #1 - 100 square feet of NobleSeal CIS

    NobleSeal CIS comes in 6' wide rolls. So you need 16.667' to equal 100 square feet.
    16.667 x 12" = 200.004" Length . Width 6' x 12" = 72" Thickness 0.030"
    LxWxT 200.004" x 72" x 0.030" = 432.009 cubic inches
    432.009 cubic inches converted to cubic feet = 3.000 cubic feet
    Typical cost of NobleSeal CIS (Price from Noble Online Store) is $11.70 per foot (6' wide roll) 16.667 x $11.70 = $195.00
    $195.00 cost divided by 3.000 cubic feet equals

    NobleSeal CIS - $65.00 roughly per cubic foot.
    Cost per square foot - $1.95

    ++++++++++++++

    Example #2 - 100 square feet of NobleSeal TS

    NobleSeal CIS comes in 5' wide rolls. So you need 20' to equal 100 square feet.

    20 x 12" = 240" Length. Width 5' x 12" = 60" Thickness 0.030"
    LxWxT 240" x 60" x 0.030" = 432 cubic inches
    468 cubic inches converted to cubic feet = 3.00 cubic feet
    Typical cost of NobleSeal CIS (Price from Noble Online Store) is $9.90 per foot (5' wide roll) 20 x $9.90 = $198.00
    $198.00 cost divided by 3.250 cubic feet equal

    NobleSeal TS - $66.00 roughly per cubic foot.
    Cost per square foot - $1.98

    ++++++++++++++

    Example #3 - 100 square feet of Kerdi

    Kerdi comes in 3' wide rolls aprox (one meter or 39"). So you need 369.230" to equal 100 square feet.

    369.23" Length. Width 39" Thickness 0.008"
    LxWxT 369.23" x 39" x 0.008" = 115.200 cubic inches
    115.2 cubic inches converted to cubic feet = 0.800 cubic feet
    Typical cost of Kerdi (Price from HomeDepot Online Store) is $269.99 per small roll (108 square feet 39" x 396")
    $249.99 cost divided by 0.800 cubic feet equal

    Kerdi - $312.48 roughly per cubic foot.
    Cost per square foot - 2.49

    ++++++++++++++

    The examples above show how three membranes all sold within 56 cents of each other have dramatically different volume measurements for the money. In this example the Kerdi membrane is only 56 cents more per square foot. $56.00 more for the 100 square foot example. Yet the NobleSeal CIS offers up nearly four times the volume. A better perm rating and ANSI 118.12 ratings for crack isolation.

    One simple illustration to showcase why this is my top recommendation for steam shower waterproofing and shower pan liners....

    I was emailed today that Laticrete's new sheet membrane is now for sale in Vancouver. The owner of one of my suppliers has put aside a small roll for me to test. I'll pick this up next week and see where this new membrane fits into the mix.

    Remember - You get what you pay for
  7. johnfrwhipple

    johnfrwhipple I love these ACO Shower Drains - Best in Class

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    My Pricing on Laticrete's new Sheet Membrane....

    An email from my dealer below in red; I asked how much the new membrane costs.....

    $133.00 with the $10 mail in rebate. $1.23 sf. The larger roll is allot better priced. Larger roll comes to $1.09 sf with the mail in rebate.

    Do you use kerdi on a regular basis? This would be a great alternative. Lifetime warranty with the whole system. Our competitors don't offer that.


    Example #4 - 100 square feet of Hydro Ban Membrane

    Hydro ban sheet membrane comes in wider rolls than Kerdi - but still 108 square feet
    108 square feet x 144 = 15,552 square inches x 0.008" = 124.416 cubic inches
    124.416 cubic inches converted to cubic feet = 0.864 cubic feet
    Typical cost of Hydro Ban Sheet Membrane (Price from Centani Tile) is $133.00 per small roll (108 square feet)
    $133.00 cost divided by 0.864 cubic feet equal

    Hydro Ban Sheet Membrane - $153.94 roughly per cubic foot.
    Cost per square foot - 1.43

    This pricing is much better than the Kerdi example but still the cost per cubic foot is quite a bit higher than NobleSeal TS or CIS. Yet the cost per square foot has dropped.

    Promising data. Time to play with it some more....

    I'll get a better price from Pacific Rim flooring on Kerdi and see how trades pricing changes the Kerdi numbers. I think they will come down a fair bit since Home Depot charges so much for the Schulter products....
  8. jadnashua

    jadnashua Retired Defense Industry Engineer xxx

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    Only John would use price/pound as a comparative of a sheet membranes!

    But, let's take NobleTS which requires their sealant on the 2" overlap seam (they have two different ones, but let's take the more commonly used one). 10.3oz tube will make about 10' of seam at a cost of $25.15 based on the retail price at Noble's web store. Kerdi uses the same 2" overlap, but uses the same thinset as used to bond it to the substrate. 10' x2" seam is about 1.66sqft. A bag of say DitraSet covers somewhere between 150-200sqft at the retail cost of about $17 (price on any of these things varies, sometimes a lot), and would use about 1/100th of the bag. So the same seam that cost $25.15 with NobleTS and NobleSeal 150 costs about $0.17 with Kerdi.

    They both pass all of the tests for A118.10 for a waterproof shower assembly. They are both good products. They each have different characteristics and installation instructions. Follow the manufacturer's instructions, and you'll have a reliable product. Which one is 'best' depends on your circumstances and needs.

    Any price comparison requires looking at all of the components called out in the manufacturer's installation instructions...the membrane itself is only one part of the equation.
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