Column Radiators and Baseboard radiators

Discussion in 'HVAC Heating & Cooling' started by johnfrwhipple, Jan 8, 2010.

  1. johnfrwhipple

    johnfrwhipple I love these ACO Shower Drains - Best in Class

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    Can you install both column radiators and baseboard radiators on the same zone? I was advised that this is not a good practice as the baseboard radiator will get to hot if the boiler is set up to heat the column radiators?

    Any ideas or thoughts on this? I am trying to save as much money as I can and the column radiators are not cheap. The rooms that I was going to install the 2 baseboard radiators I was planning on down the road covering them and making them heated window benches.

    My thought now is to buck up and purchase two tiny column radiators for these two window benches.

    What about the heavy baseboard radiators sold through Burham - I'm sure then can be on the same zone.

    Sorry for all the questions on this subject. Most plumbers I have spoke with don't have much experience with these systems and are pushing forced air systems or in floor heating on me.


    I love the look of the old column radiators, love the sounds (groining and moaning pipes) and believe from what I have read and heard that it is the most comfortable heat for elderly people. Since I plan on dying in this house that is key for my wife and I.

    Thanks for all the help!

    Regards,
  2. johnjh2o1

    johnjh2o1 Plumbing Contractor for 49 years

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    Are you talking about copper fin baseboard or cast iron baseboard? You can put cast iron baseboard on the same zone as your column radiators, but not copper fin.

    John
  3. johnfrwhipple

    johnfrwhipple I love these ACO Shower Drains - Best in Class

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    Copper Fin baseboard was the plan

    I had thought copper fin but this looks like a bad option.
  4. nhmaster

    nhmaster Master Plumber

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    What you are trying to do will work just fine. Go ahead and mix them.
  5. johnjh2o1

    johnjh2o1 Plumbing Contractor for 49 years

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    Can't agree with that one. It has been tried over and over again and it just doesn't work. If one room has copper fin and the other has radiators the room with the copper fin will heat up long before the one with radiators. Makes for a very unbalanced system. Then on the other end of the cycle when the thermostat is satisfied the copper fin cools down and the radiators continue to heat.

    John
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2010
  6. johnfrwhipple

    johnfrwhipple I love these ACO Shower Drains - Best in Class

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    Combining the two on the same zone.

    My plan was to have a 4' section of copper fin to start the room loop and from there over to a column radiator the rooms main heat source.

    This 4 foot section is under the window and will have a window bench build over top of it. The thermostat for the room will be closer to the column radiator and should read the room temp not just the heat of the copper fins.

    I'm not sure the price of the cast iron baseboards but have looked into it.
  7. johnjh2o1

    johnjh2o1 Plumbing Contractor for 49 years

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    When you say start the room loop I hope your not looping from one cast iron radiator to another. ( that will not work at all) As far as the 4" section of copper fin it works by convection and by closing it off with the window seat it will not work to well.

    John
  8. nhmaster

    nhmaster Master Plumber

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    Looping form a single 4' baseboard to the radiator will work just as well as a 4' piece of pipe will and since he's putting it under a window seat it should work just fine. I wouldn't run a whole house like this but it ain't worth the expense and trouble of piping it off a monoflow loop.
  9. johnjh2o1

    johnjh2o1 Plumbing Contractor for 49 years

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    Peter you missed the hole point of my post. What I said was I hope your not looping from one CAST IRON RADIATOR to another. I think we both know that won't work. The other point I was trying to make was that the 4" section of baseboard under the window seat would not put out much heat as it depends on convection.

    John
  10. nhmaster

    nhmaster Master Plumber

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    It will start throwing heat before the radiator will.

    I have seen radiators looped before and they work fine. Here's why. The path of least resistance is straight on through the bottom of the radiator with conduction carrying the heat up to the top sections. So the first radiators get hot slightly faster than the further ones on the loop but in practice the difference is negligible. The main reason why radiators don't often get looped is because the emit much larger btu's and need much larger main piping to carry the load.
  11. johnjh2o1

    johnjh2o1 Plumbing Contractor for 49 years

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    Then I guess the thinking behind all the one pipe and two pipe systems was wrong. For 90 yrs we should have been looping from one radiator to the other. You need to spend more time in a Holiday Inn. Maybe we could have run all 3" pipe and saved all those mains.

    John
  12. nhmaster

    nhmaster Master Plumber

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    No, and I did a poor job of explaining what I was trying to say. So I'll try again.

    If I loop say 6 radiators together and they all are capable of producing X number of btu/hr's with a flow rate of Y gpm they will all heat up at about the same rate because the flow thorugh the bottom sections is straight through and unimpeded. However the downfall is that in order for them to all be able to utilize their full btu potential they would have to have a very large main run from radiator to radiator which is one, not practical and two may not even be possible if the output is beyond the ability of normal size piping to handle. All that said though, I have seen many many commercial jobs where two to four radiators were indeed loop piped. The latest that comes to mind is in an old movie theater that we did some AC work on.

    Hope that clears up the confusion.
  13. johnfrwhipple

    johnfrwhipple I love these ACO Shower Drains - Best in Class

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    I'm getting confused Men???

    If I have two column radiators on one zone - I'm not allowed to have the line run to the first then head to the second and then back? If two column radiators are on the same zone do I need to run two separate lines from the boiler?

    I don't want any fussy problems down the road so will install a mini column radiator under the benches or some solid cast baseboard instead of the copper fin that I was talking about.

    Most rooms will be on there own zone was my thinking but the hallways and entry area will have 3 column raditors on one zone and the living room/dining room, south bedroom and Kitchen will have 2 column radiators per zone.

    Is this going to be a problem? I have worked on lots of houses that have copper fin baseboards set up this way and they work fine.

    I plan on retiring in this home and do not want to struggle with my heating system for the rest of my days.
  14. johnfrwhipple

    johnfrwhipple I love these ACO Shower Drains - Best in Class

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    I spoke with Shafer Bros. Inc. again today to review my layout

    Shafter Bros. Inc. - OldCastIronRadiators.com

    Had a long chat today over the phone with Shafter Bros. Inc. and reviewed my plans for the heated window bench. Like mentioned above the 4' section of copper fin baseboard will generated no heat. The main reason as I was told is the different water temperature of the water leaving the boiler (160 F). With the bench on top I would have smothered what little heat (if any) that was produced.

    The new plan is to install a cast iron baseboard on the face of the window bench that will generated a fair amount of heat and the rest of the heat needed for this room will be made up with a column radiator installed 10 feet away.

    Waiting for the final numbers and then once my radiators arrive they will be painted in my shop and ready for a lifetime of service once installed.

    I must say the level of knowledge from my contact at Shafer was huge. I must have been a nightmare client with my request for so many options and versions of my heating requests. In the end they know exactly what I want and now I wait for the price....

    I'm so excited to install this "Old School" touch - it is exactly what I wanted from day one.
  15. johnfrwhipple

    johnfrwhipple I love these ACO Shower Drains - Best in Class

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    Today I'm pulling the chute and ordering my radiators.

    Still waiting for the radiators to arrive. The plumber I hired wasn't able to complete the project.

    Have gone back to the drawing board and hoping my regular guys can help.
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2010
  16. johnfrwhipple

    johnfrwhipple I love these ACO Shower Drains - Best in Class

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    I have them! 5 Baseboards and 12 Column radiators.[​IMG][​IMG]
  17. johnfrwhipple

    johnfrwhipple I love these ACO Shower Drains - Best in Class

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    Painting Column Radiators

    So I finally dug out my sprayer, cleaned it up and got it dial'd in to paint these column radiators and baseboard radiators of mine. The radiators all came primed grey and I choose to do the painting myself. After two years I think it's time they get painted!

    Here is a look.

    [​IMG]

    I found that the latex paint did not spray that well and found that a 80 percent paint and 20 percent water mix was perfect for the latex paint I was using. I mixed it in small amounts and sprayed the plastic walls of my wife's garage until I dialed in the proper air and flow rates.

    [​IMG]

    This face mask is my favourite and very comfortable to wear.

    [​IMG]


    Taking shape.

    These pictures where taken after two primer coats and one finish coat. I will spray them once more tonight and then finish the painting by hand once installed. The radiators are so heavy that I did not want to move the ropes around after each coat.
  18. johnfrwhipple

    johnfrwhipple I love these ACO Shower Drains - Best in Class

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    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    Column Radiator painting.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    Painting them in position took forever. Lucky I only had three hooked up. It will most likely be faster to remove this one and the others and spray them properly.



    JW
  19. johnfrwhipple

    johnfrwhipple I love these ACO Shower Drains - Best in Class

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    After months and months of leaving the kitchen rad not running I broke down and tried some PC 11 as a band aid repair. The top left connection between the two fins started leaking when I prepped the rad for paint.

    The PC 11 seams to have done the trick and after five days the rad has not leaked a drop. I'm not sure if the rad rusted shut or if the PC 11 did the trick but either way me and my girls are happy to have heat in the kitchen!

    JW

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
  20. johnfrwhipple

    johnfrwhipple I love these ACO Shower Drains - Best in Class

    Messages:
    3,810
    Location:
    North Vancouver, BC
    After months and months of leaving the kitchen rad not running I broke down and tried some PC 11 as a band aid repair. The top left connection between the two fins started leaking when I prepped the rad for paint.

    The PC 11 seams to have done the trick and after five days the rad has not leaked a drop. I'm not sure if the rad rusted shut or if the PC 11 did the trick but either way me and my girls are happy to have heat in the kitchen!

    JW

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
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