cloudy water

Discussion in 'Pumps and Tanks Well Forum & Blog' started by chikfarmer, Feb 18, 2013.

  1. chikfarmer

    chikfarmer New Member

    Messages:
    4
    Location:
    Comer, Ga
    About 2 years ago we built some new layer houses for chicks. When the well was drilled I requested for the casing to be pushed down as deep as possible. The well is 380 ft deep with a delivery of about 85 gallons a minute or so I was told. I also requested for the pump to be put about 30 ft. from the bottom. He didnt do that, he put it about 200 ft down. The problem I have is cloudy or almost muddy water. It was a contract well but would have paid extra to have the pump lower. I believe I am getting to much surface water as the pump pulls heavy in the summer time when hot. I have 2 tanks, dont know the volume, about 5 ft high and as big as a 55 gallon drum. I also dont believe he put in enoug casing. He seems to think the pump will pull more muddy at the bottom. This is the second time he has done this to me and the last time. Fool me once shame on you. Fool me twice shame on me. NOT the third time. What do you think, am I wrong? Not sure about pump size but I think 3 H.P.
  2. Texas Wellman

    Texas Wellman In the Trades

    Messages:
    523
    Location:
    SE Texas-Coastal
    I don't know the conditions in your part of georgia, but with a well that makes 85 GPM you don't really need to set your pump very deep. If we had a typical 380 ft well here the water level in the well would be about 60-80 ft and we would set the pump anywhere from 120-200 ft. With a screened well the closer to the bottom the better the chances of pulling in mud. I would never set the pump as deep as you requested unless I had to.

    The driller really cannot set the depth of the well, it is determined by the aquifer depth. If you've got a good strata at 380 then that's where you set. I don't know what can be done about muddy water, maybe the well could be developed further. I would get another well co. out and ask their opinion.
  3. LLigetfa

    LLigetfa DIYer, not in the trades

    Messages:
    3,897
    Location:
    NW Ontario, Canada
    I think you pegged it there. My guess is that pump cycling is sort of "surge developing" the well now and that it either needs to be over-pumped hard continuously to complete the development or stop the cycling with a CycleStopValve.

    I don't see how setting the pump lower would make it any better. It will still pull the water from the same place (bottom) except the extra pipe could slow it down a tad.
  4. craigpump

    craigpump Member

    Messages:
    882
    Location:
    ct
    Sounds as though there may not be enough casing in the well, the casing isn't sealed into the bedrock, the drive shoe got pinched or damaged, the casing is broken or possibly there is a verticle fracture that is allowing surface water and soil into the well. If any of those conditions exist, pumping won't help clear the water.

    Depending on how dirty the water is, you may be able to run a camera down the well to see what is going on in the well and where the dirt could be coming from. From there if the casing is damaged, a string of liner could be run in on a Jaswell packer to seal off the surface contaminants.

    But first I would be sure that the color isn't due to high levels of iron or manganese.
  5. chikfarmer

    chikfarmer New Member

    Messages:
    4
    Location:
    Comer, Ga
    My thoughts was the water would come more from the bottom of the well which is usually around this area is in granite. In other words from the source. Therefore less surface water. It is my experience with a bored (24") well that when it is pulled hard as on chicken houses muddy water. Usually 40 to 60 ft deep. Just trying to use reasoning on that putting pump to bottom. Do not know. There is another well about 300 ft from this one that is 520 ft deep and produces aroung 10 gpm that is clean and clear. Of course it is for home use only. Would not do for chik houses as not enough gpm. Also that is why I requested for extra casing as I wanted to seal out as much surface water as possible (steel)casing. I also do have a little iron in water but filters on water lines into chick houses that has to be changed once at least a week. They seem to have muddy settlement in them. What is meant by cycle stop valve. I have heard of pumping well hard to clear it up but when they use a lot of water in summer it seems it should eventually clear up.
    Will be getting rid of chicks in a few weeks, may need to turn on faucet wide open and see what happens. Will be out for about 6 weeks. lm still all ears for suggestions.
    Last edited: Feb 20, 2013
  6. LLigetfa

    LLigetfa DIYer, not in the trades

    Messages:
    3,897
    Location:
    NW Ontario, Canada
    What is the well cased with? Most deep well casings are watertight so the only place the water can enter is from the bottom or from the screened casing which is usually near the bottom.
  7. chikfarmer

    chikfarmer New Member

    Messages:
    4
    Location:
    Comer, Ga

    This well has steel casing (8 inch )?maybe or 6 inch dont remember but he drilled one well at my old farm I had and put in pvc casing. I thought that was dumb especially holding up a 5 hp pump and galvanized 2 inch pipe. Now I am not that dumb to know that when you push pvc down with your drilling rig that it will not crack under ground pressure. That is why I wonder about if he put in enough casing, and that is causing my problem.
  8. craigpump

    craigpump Member

    Messages:
    882
    Location:
    ct
    I would find someone with a down hole camera and run it into the well to see if you can determine where the problem is.
  9. LLigetfa

    LLigetfa DIYer, not in the trades

    Messages:
    3,897
    Location:
    NW Ontario, Canada
    You say the well is 380 feet deep and cased in steel. What you don't say is whether it goes into a rock bore or not. Normally with a rock bore, the casing ends at the bedrock and gets sealed to the bedrock. From there on down there is no more casing. Are you suggesting that the driller should have cased the rock bore?

    If the well is only in sand and gravel, it has to be cased to the full depth. The last few feet may or may not have screened well casing. This should all be in the report.
  10. valveman

    valveman Moderator Staff Member

    Messages:
    4,418
    Location:
    Lubbock, Texas
    With a 3HP pump and two 80 gallon tanks that hold about 25 gallons of water each, you are probably cycling the pump on and off a lot. Cycling the pump on and off could easily surge the well and cause this problem. A Cycle Stop Valve would vary the flow rate of the pump to match the amount being used, which would eliminate the cycling and could help calm down the well problem. We use CSV’s in a lot of chicken facilities. You can see how it works here.
    http://www.cyclestopvalves.com/simple/home.php
    However, the CSV would only be a Bandaid, as it doesn’t address the main cause of the problem. Which I agree a camera could tell you where the problem is coming from.

    Another suggestion would be to store the water from the house well. 10 GPM is 14,400 gallons per day, which will water a lot of chickens and still feed the house. You could put it in three 5,000 gallon storage tanks, then use the 3 HP pump with a CSV to pump from the tanks to the chickens. Just another option in case you can’t clear up the other well.
  11. craigpump

    craigpump Member

    Messages:
    882
    Location:
    ct
    It would be a shame to have to abandon a 380' well after paying good money for it, especially if the driller didn't get a good seal on the casing.

    If you find that the casing is sealed and is not broken, find a driller who can surge the well with a cable tool. Surging can pull in a lot of fines in a hurry and will definitely help clean up the well.
  12. justwater

    justwater Well Drilling/Service

    Messages:
    327
    Location:
    FL/GA
    did you notice the cloudiness just recently, or has it always been an issue?
  13. chikfarmer

    chikfarmer New Member

    Messages:
    4
    Location:
    Comer, Ga
    To justwater, it has always been an issue. To valveman, I dont see any advantage to a cyclestop valve. The pump will fill the tanks and cutoff when it reaches setpoint. It is not going to keep cycling as your demo at website suggests. These are layer houses only 20,000 birds. That is why I had 2 tanks and a smaller pump put in so as to not cycle so often. At my old farm when he drilled that well he only put in 1 tank and that poor ole 5hp pump worked itself to death. I had to put in 2 pressure switches before I had a contactor installed. They would burn up cyclying so much. There was 88,000 broiler chicks on that pump. I do like the idea of a storage tank though as I think they are not drinking but around 1000 gallons a day per house now. Summer time is different when the cool cells are running to keep birds cool. Evaporative cooling. To LLigetfa I dont think he put in maybe 60 or 70 ft of casing. As I said 380 ft deep and I am sure there is no screen casing at bottom. That is why I wanted more casing to seal off surface water. At lleast 150 to 200 ft and this time I wanted steel casing not pvc as he did on another well he drilled for me. We are talking about submersible pumps here.
  14. valveman

    valveman Moderator Staff Member

    Messages:
    4,418
    Location:
    Lubbock, Texas
    A smaller pump and two tanks is a good idea, but it will still be cycling. Even a cycle every 10 minutes is 140 cycles per day. But when you are watching it, a 10 minute cycle seems like a long time, its not. Cycling adds up really quickly. Adding an extra tank or two is the way I use to do it as well, until I found a better way. The only advantange to the CSV would be increased pump life, no water hammer, and constant pressure on the system. Stopping the pump from cycling might also keep from surging the well and stirring things up.
  15. LLigetfa

    LLigetfa DIYer, not in the trades

    Messages:
    3,897
    Location:
    NW Ontario, Canada
    Then tell us what the formation is so we don't have to guess. It should all be in the well report. As I said before, the casing would go as far as the bedrock and be sealed to it. No driller would leave a borehole through glacial till uncased. If you have 60 or 70 feet of casing, we have to assume that it is that far to bedrock. Again I ask, do you expect the rock bore to be cased?
  16. justwater

    justwater Well Drilling/Service

    Messages:
    327
    Location:
    FL/GA
    people, dont let these drillers get away with a bad well that doesnt pump clear water!! there was a time you could call his water management district and they likely would MAKE him correct the well, but now you've waited too long. blows my mind, slightest thing seems weird on my job and the phone blows up, his well pumps junk 2 yrs and hey whatever...

    just fyi theres a type of well around here where casing is set past the first rock, through that water zone and seated in clay underneath it.. then open hole is drilled through clay down to coarse sand. blow a pocket out, pull up rods and blow inside casing... crystal clear. might have 100' casing and be 260'. open hole through clay and no screen. have done many. not saying thats what he has here, just that theres lots of different wells and ways to make them.. so i agree, it would really help if he could tell us a little more about it.

    i think the well was wrong from the jump. short-cased, casing not seated, something.. but thats a guess because we have no idea how it was constructed. he should make it right but i doubt he will, i probably wouldnt either after 2 yrs. what is the drillers explanation of the dirty water?
    Last edited: Feb 22, 2013
  17. craigpump

    craigpump Member

    Messages:
    882
    Location:
    ct
    The driller may not have set pipe in glacial till, but he may have set pipe in soft sandstone that is being eroded by the action of the water in the well.

    Again, a camera survey of the well will probably answer the questions.
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