Closet Flange problems...

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coalpiper

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Hi,
New to the forum.

I have some closet flange challenges (well, at least I think they might be challenges).

I'm organizing floor replacements in the bathrooms, but before I select a contractor I am wondering on the right course of action.

When this house was built in the late 80s, looks like what was done is that the closet flanges were set right on the 3/4" plywood floor which in turn sits on the joists. Then 3/8" - 1/2" OSB floor was put on top of that 3/4" floor surrounding the flange, which put the top of flange about even or slightly below the OSB. The tiles were put on top of that OSB and surrounding the base of the toilet. Good grief. The toilet wasn't even sitting on the tile !

Wondering what to do here - I had a plumber visit and he figured it would be difficult job to replace the closet flanges such that they could be reinstalled on top of a new finished floor. He also figured that during a closet flange replacement attempt, that the pipes might "slump" or lead to other problems. Access to underneath the closet flanges seems difficult.

The plumber also said if I put in new floor it would probably be Ok to have the finished floor surface slightly below or level with the top of the flanges. He also mentioned that it is somehow typical during home rough-ins that the flanges are put on the 3/4" floor over the joists, and not set on top of the finished floor, and that the tilers usually tile around the flange.

Any insights would be appreciated.
Thanks.
 

Reach4

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http://set-rite.com/ is one possibility.

There may well be others. I suggest a photo or two (800 pixels max) and a careful ID measurement of one the flanges that are there. Also measure from the top of the existing flange to where you think the new floor surface will be.
 

coalpiper

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A photo of one of these flanges is below.

I should also mention that both flanges are bent on one side each, and on one of them the screw that bolts it into the floor is now rusted and loose.

Looks like at some point in the past the bolt on one side was overtightened.

For securing the flange, could I just put in an oversized screw ? I have no plans to do whatever the required corrections are, I will call a plumber, but just looking for some insights.

Photo below. Disregard the Fernco - I tried that out earlier before I pulled the floors up.

IMG_3660.jpg
 
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WJcandee

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I'm sure Terry or HJ might weigh in here, but here's my understanding:

(1) It's technically proper (and Code-compliant) to mount the flange on top of the finished floor (e.g. the tile) and secure it through there to the subfloor. That's how a good plumber will do it if he comes in after the tile guys are done.

(2) It isn't uncommon to see the flange mounted on the subfloor, because the tile guys usually come in after the plumber. So the plumber sets the flange, and the tile guys later do their thing. If the top of the flange is even with the floor, then you just use a thick wax ring.

(3) And in older homes, I have certainly seen the tile guys put a new floor over the old floor and tile (or cut vinyl) around the existing toilet.

(4) So you are probably fine in terms of where it will end up. Just use 2 wax rings if the top of the flange is below the top of the finished floor.

(5) I find the plumber's comment that it would be difficult or complicated to remove and replace the old flange rather bizarre. It's a straightforward job for any plumber -- it requires expertise and it costs money, but it's no big deal for someone like Terry or HJ to do that. Whether it's necessary is another issue, but it sounds like a potential "Is He A Plumber Or A Handyman?" red flag moment. I won't use the word "Hack", but it certainly raised my eyebrows. Maybe he was just trying to steer you to what he thought the proper solution was.
 
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Terry

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To cut off and remove and existing flange can be interesting.
Sometimes, the flange is plumbed to a street 90 el.
It may not be that easy to remove to add 3/4" of height to the installation. I thank you for thinking that both hj and I are excellent plumbers. We are :)
When running into that situation, we normally just juse two wax rings. I would say that 95% of our installs are like that. It will be fine.
 

Wallijonn

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When this house was built in the late 80s, looks like what was done is that the closet flanges were set right on the 3/4" plywood floor which in turn sits on the joists. Then 3/8" - 1/2" OSB floor was put on top of that 3/4" floor surrounding the flange, which put the top of flange about even or slightly below the OSB. The tiles were put on top of that OSB and surrounding the base of the toilet.

After the tiles are down just install a flange spacer (they come in different thicknesses).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DixhpVg9o40

Look closely. Can you spot a big problem? Look at the slots where the bowl bolts slip into the slots.

I would not install these spacers unless you have gobs of Silicone and a brand new flange to stick it too. If the flange is dirty, and the Silicone doesn't stick, it's just one more place to leak
Terry Love
 
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coalpiper

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I wonder if something like this would work ? Advertised as replacing the requirement for 2 seals.

Seal.JPG
 

Wallijonn

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The tiles were put on top of that OSB and surrounding the base of the toilet. The toilet wasn't even sitting on the tile!

Will you be removing the old tiles and putting down a new floor?

... if I put in [a] new floor it would probably be Ok to have the finished floor surface slightly below or level with the top of the flanges.

That's the way it should be done.

... and that the tilers usually tile around the flange.

Again, tilers should tile around the flange, to about within a inch of the flange.

What happened in your case is that someone was lazy and put the tile down around the toilet instead of pulling the toilet out and doing the tiling job correctly. How the heck did they ever do the tiles behind the toilet? It would be like doing a tiling job and not removing the vanity. (Yeah, you may want to check that, too.) Other than a bathtub or shower, the toilet and any cabinets should be removed when doing a tiling job. (Let's say that you now have a single 30" wide vanity and in the future you want to install a 42" vanity, or you have a 42" vanity now and want to put in a 30" vanity. You might get away with the former, but not the latter.)
 

coalpiper

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Thanks Wallijonn

Coincidentally, yes, the tiles were put around the vanity too. The vanity was sitting right on some particle board, not on the tiles. I think this was from original construction. Who knows.

Yup, I will be putting down new floors, just trying to figure out the options right now to prevent future problems.
 

coalpiper

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Just burns me … what happened to plumbing codes along the way ? Now I have this place with 2 flanges on the subfloor from original construction. Guess it lasted 30 years though, but now I get to stare at the problem and scratch my head.
 
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