Circut Breaker Trips - Pump Wire Short, Bad Pressure Tank, or Well Running Out of Water?

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Biddle

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I would be most grateful if you would give me a hand at figuring out the well/pump problem I’ve been experiencing the last 2 weeks. The pump circuit breaker trips under normal water demands for 2 people. Example: The circuit breaker trips and, consequently, cuts off the water after running the clothes washer one time and taking a short shower. I’m trying to determine if the pump is bad, the pressure tank is bad, or the well is running out of water.

Our 1.5 HP, submersible, pump is 11 years old. The well is 680 ft. deep. Water pressure has always been terrible. We can’t run the dishwasher at the same time as the shower. I can’t water a plant with a hose in the back yard, if my wife is watering a plant with a hose in the front yard.

But I digress, my immediate concern is that the pump trips the circuit breaker if we do not ration the use of our water. My thoughts: if the pump were bad, i.e., had a short, the breaker would trip again immediately after re-setting it. It doesn’t. We can reset it when it trips and we get water.The circuit breaker doesn’t trip again until we increase our water usage a bit, e.g several loads of wash. If the well was running out of water, would that cause the circuit breaker to trip? Is there some kind of fuse on the submersible pump that causes the circuit breaker to trip if the pump isn’t getting water? If the well ran out of water (water level fell below the pump), wouldn’t it take a while to re-fill after it ran out and tripped the breaker? I can re-set the circuit breaker and the pump starts pumping and water flows immediately. I replaced the circuit breaker hoping it would be something that easy. Still trips.

Thanks for all your help.
Tedd
 

Reach4

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What amp rating is your 240 VAC tandem breaker?

Do you have a control box with one, or two capacitors? If two, one would be the starting capacitor, and one would be the run capacitor, which reduces the current draw while running.

For troubleshooting, you would like to have an ohmmeter to measure the resistance of the disconnected wiring to ground. When first put in, that should be at least 500,000 ohms. To cause your symptom now, the resistance would have to be much much lower. A short to ground could be adding to your current draw. You could also measure the wire-to-wire resistances with a digital voltmeter. Those measurements are just a few ohms. Interpreting those numbers is harder. You would like to have a clamp-around ammeter to measure the amps. That is easiest to interpret I think.

Running out of water would not explain your symptom.
 

Craigpump

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You need an amprobe.

Sounds like the pump is locking up and that trips the breaker. With an amprobe, you can read the start amps and watch what kind of current the pump draws as its running. Typically, a pump will draw higher amps on start and then drop off a bit when it's running. If the amps keep increasing, the pump is locking up and needs to be pulled.
 

Biddle

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Reach4: The 240V circuit breaker has a 20-amp rating. You said I should "measure the resistance of the disconnected wiring to ground." I'm not sure what that means. Are you suggesting I disconnect the black wire on the pressure switch that goes to the pump? One probe from my multimeter would go to disconnected wire. Where do I put the other probe? Where do I put the probes for the "wire-to-wire resistances". Thanks
 
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Biddle

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Craigpump: I measured the amps with my amp meter. The first time I measured it, the pump started at about 13.75 and as it ran had a high of 13.95. The second time I tried it, it started at 13.75 and had a high of 13.78 as it ran. Maybe the first time, I got the number wrong for the 13.95.
 

Reach4

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1. Normally a 1.5 HP pump would start with more current than you read, and it would drop to less than you read. Your meter could be somewhat off. Your pump could be failing. In fact, with your performance problems (other than the breaker popping) that seems likely. Do you know how far down the water surface is? That will help understand the situation and to help select your next pump. The well guy may have a device that measures that depth without having to drop a weighted line to do the measurement.

If your water is 400 ft down, a 1.5 HP pump would only be enough for a 5 or 7 GPM pump. You would want a pump with a lot of stages. So knowing the static level would be important in pump selection. A pump that can do a solid 7 to 10 GPM will work for most homes that do not do much irrigation IMO.

2. Normally a 1.5 HP pump is fed via a breaker that is higher than 20 amps, but I think that is to absorb the extra starting current. Is your wire from the breaker 12 gauge? If it is 10 gauge, I would go to a bigger breaker-- probably 25 amps.

You may need to go to at least 10 gauge wire to the well for your new pump, unless your static level is higher. You probably need to be locating a well service for your new pump.

Table 14 of the AIM manual has what I am confident is a typo in the 1, 1.5, and 2 HP pump area.
Reach4: The 240V circuit breaker has a 20-amp rating. You said I should "measure the resistance of the disconnected wiring to ground."
With the breaker open (off) you would measure the resistance between one of the wires going to the pump (such as the yellow, red or black) to a ground, such as a grounded water pipe. While you expect more than 500,000 ohms (0.5 megohm), the resistance would have to be considerably lower to contribute enough leakage to contribute to blowing the breaker. Figure 10 of the AIM manual illustrates the connection.
 
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Craigpump

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According to the Berkeley pump book, a 1.5hp 5 GPM pump will build 60 psi and move 1.8 gpm with a pumping level of 700'. A 1.5 hp pump requires #8 cable when the cable length exceeds 480'.

Unfortunately, most electricians wire pumps up with #12 Romex, my feeling is that the wire from the breakers to the controls should be the same as the run from the controls to the pump.

I have seen where mice have gnawed through the wire insulation in the house and at the well causing a breaker to trip under a load.

Dropping a weighted line down the well to determine the water level is a terrible idea, lines stretch, they get tangled up around the pipe and wire. Any good pump company will have at least one water level detector, either a Well Sounder or a Ravensgate.
 

Valveman

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My book shows a 2 wire, 1.5 HP pump needs a 35 amp breaker and a 3 wire needs a 30 amp breaker. I would replace the breaker before doing anything else as it is marginal at best and may have gotten even weaker.
 

Biddle

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Reach4: Sorry, I'm just getting back to you. It was a busy week. Starting amps: could be higher. When I heard the pressure tank click indicating that the pump had started I raced to put the amp probe on. 5 or 6 seconds had passed. I'll try it again. You asked about the wire gauge to the breaker: it is 12 g. Per your suggestion, I measured the resistance of the black and then the red wire going to the pump and ground. Meter read "OL".
 
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Biddle

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I replaced the old 20-amp breaker with a new 20-amp breaker but then it tripped again so apparently the breaker wasn't the problem. Oddly, the circuit breaker has not tripped in a week and everything seems to be working fine. Don't know what the explanation is for that. I think since the pump is 11-years old and I haven't been able to figure out why the circuit breaker was tripping (even though it isn't now), I best hire a pump or well drilling company to replace the pump. If the pump is going to fail and need replacing, I'd rather do it to my schedule, then in a panic in the middle of a frigid New England winter. What do you think?
 

Biddle

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My book shows a 2 wire, 1.5 HP pump needs a 35 amp breaker and a 3 wire needs a 30 amp breaker. I would replace the breaker before doing anything else as it is marginal at best and may have gotten even weaker.
I interpreted the installation instructions that came with the pump as indicating 12 g wire and a 20-amp breaker. I'll see if I can find the installation instructions and check again. Meanwhile, I replaced the old 20-amp breaker with a new 20-amp breaker. It tripped once and then not again in a week so far.
 

Reach4

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While these Franklin recommendations are for their motors, the needs of other similar HP motors would be similar. The recommendations have some margin, and your pump may have a problem. Maybe you will want a new pump and new wires + breaker. Depending on the depth to water, your new pump may be something other than a 1.5 HP.

You can see what I mean about a typo in the table since the table shows smaller breakers for 2 HP than 1.5.

img_4.png
 

Biddle

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Craigpump and Valveman have already seen this message as it is related to another question. For those that haven't and to bring this thread to a conclusion: My pump finally died for good and forced the issue. The circuit breaker tripped and could not be reset. I called Staven Brothers, a well drilling company that has a good reputation in Tolland, CT. They pulled my old 1.5 HP, 5-GPM pump and put in a new 1.5 HP, 7-GPM pump, and raised the pressure on my pressure tank. To test the water pressure, which has always been really bad, Staven Bros suggested I connect a hose and sprinkler to the drain value on the pressure tank, thereby, bypassing my two in-line water softeners. The result was outstanding water pressure for outside sprinklers. Staven Bros said they are confident that poor water pressure inside the house is the result of partially plugged water softeners. I have two water softeners in line to deal with a terrible iron problem. Next up, is to check the water softener heads to see if they are indeed clogged as Staven's believe. Would be good if that proved to be true because it would at last fix the problem of low water pressure inside the house. Thanks Craigpump, Valveman, and Texas Well Man for your words of wisdom. You are a great bunch of folks.
 

LuckyDog

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Thank you Biddle for the final report. It bugs me when I read a thread to the end and there is no conclusion.
 

Randy Sellers

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My book shows a 2 wire, 1.5 HP pump needs a 35 amp breaker and a 3 wire needs a 30 amp breaker. I would replace the breaker before doing anything else as it is marginal at best and may have gotten even weaker.

Ive got a 50 amp that not using. Would that be a problem.
 
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