Circulated hot water pros and cons

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NW Bunny

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Hello gents, I am faced with the dire situation of having to replace my failing electric heat system. I was advised that I should look into having a higher efficiency system installed. But my small(ish) northern clime home cannot accommodate forced air ducting so it was suggested I think about the possibility of having a circulated hot water heating system installed.

I wonder if someone would be so kind as to briefly explain the pros and cons of this kind of heating system and if it can adequately keep a cold climate home warm in the coldest days of winter. BTW, it can get as cold as -30 degs. C for a week at a time and I tend to like keeping the inside of my house tropical throughout the winter.

I was also told that such a system could replace my aging hot water supply as well. Is it a good idea to have two different home systems supplied by a single piece of equipment?
 

Reach4

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I wonder if someone would be so kind as to briefly explain the pros and cons of this kind of heating system and if it can adequately keep a cold climate home warm in the coldest days of winter.
What fuel would you be using?

If you will use heating oil, natural gas , or propane, the circulating hot water systems are a nice premium system. If your heating energy source will be electricity, you would not use hot water.
 

BadgerBoilerMN

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I use an electric boiler full time at my office. The first electric conversion I did was from electric baseboard to hydronic (hot water) baseboard using a sealed combustion modcon boiler, fin-tube and indirect water heater circa. 1987.

If you don't need cooling, hot water heat is the only rational direction. First a heat load, then fuel costs.
 

NW Bunny

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Aren't you a couple of dears replying so quick.

What fuel would you be using?
My girlfriend who knows more about these things than what I do came over last night to show me a big black pipe with a cap in my basement room that she feels certain is a gas pipe. She said I would be wise to use gas power instead of electricity to keep my house hot. So I will definitely call the gas company to confirm with on Monday.
 

Jadnashua

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Without knowing the layout of your house, it's hard to say what type and what size heating system would work out best for you. Lots of people use hot water to heat their homes. There are lots of ways to do it from in-floor radiant, to radiators, to hydro-air, and others. The quick and dirty estimate of how much heat you need will often be expensive to both buy and operate, which is why you want to spend a little to get a good assessment of your home, not a guess. For maximum efficiency and comfort, you really need someone that can perform a quality analysis of your home to size it properly, then, you need to decide how you want to distribute that heat inside the house. The vast majority of systems end up being too big. The most economical system would run nearly constantly on your coldest day, providing just the amount of heat to the building that is lost to outside. Cycling on/off is less efficient and not as comfortable, but systems aren't infinitely variable, so there's always some compromise. On a mild day, most of the better systems can adjust how hot the water is going through, so it can still run longer times. This keeps the temperature even rather than cycling on/off with a big blast of heat, then off, then cooling, then repeat.

It all starts, though, with a good analysis of your house. Then, you need to decide how to get that heat into the house, and can select the type and quantity of heat transfer devices. The room layout, windows, insulation, prevailing winds, orientation to the sun, all play a part in getting things nice and even and comfortable. Unless your electric rates are really low, NG will probably result in a lower energy cost. ANd, yes, a new boiler can heat your water for showers, etc., very well, too. Often, an indirectly heated tank (heated from the boiler...no heat source actually in the tank which is why they call it an indirect) can be smaller than a conventional electric WH, and produce lots more hot water since it can use the full output of the boiler to make it happen when needed.
 

rjbphd

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For one of utmost heating comfort in your climate, install cast iron baseboard heating system. The more mass you have with minumal space used ,the more comfort at lower temperature.
 

Dana

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Low temp panel radiators would be more comfortable than cast iron baseboard- quite a bit cheaper too. The thermal mass has no comfort benefit- but the amount of direct radiation area does. (Radiant floors & ceilings are more comfortable than any baseboards, but very expensive to install.)

But any recommendations without knowing first the heat load at the 99% outside design temperature, and then the different pricing & rate structures for both gas and electricity are premature. That's why BadgerBoilerMN sagely advised:

First a heat load, then fuel costs.

..and jadnashu chimed in with :

"...you really need someone that can perform a quality analysis of your home to size it properly..."

There's really not much to talk about until you get a handle on the relevant numbers.

If you have some mid-winter electric bills with exact meter reading dates & power use, and a mid summer electric bill for a baseline and an exact location to be able to look up weather data for the mid-winter billing period(s) and to estimate the 99th percentile temperature bin for that location, it's possible to run the numbers to come up with a reasonable size for the equipment, but it won't tell you a thing about how much radiation individual rooms would need. That's usually estimated based on the construction types and thermal performance of the exterior surfaces (windows, walls, roofs, doors, etc.) of each room, and some educated guesses as to how much air leakage there is.
 

WorthFlorida

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Call your local gas company. They might offer a free energy audit analysis or charge a nominal fee and you may be able find out if there is a gas line to your home. They should be able to lead you on the their list of competent heating contractors and if any any rebates are offered. Bottom line is they usually want new customers.

Advantage of gas is with the right equipment you will still have limited heat during a power failure.
 
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Tom Sawyer

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Heat loss first

Copper fin tube baseboard and a mid efficiency gas boiler (non condensing) = lowest cost to install

Panel radiators with high efficiency condensing gas boiler = highest cost to install

Now the trick is to figure out whether or not the high efficiency install will pay back the difference in a reasonable amount. Of time. The usual answer is no, it won't.
 

Dana

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Naw, the highest cost to install is radiant floors, followed by radiant ceiling, both of which are WAY beyond flat panel radiators, but all of the aforementioned are for those interested in the payback in higher comfort, not Loonies.

But without the heat load numbers there's no way to estimate any of it.
 

Jadnashua

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A large surface like a radiant floor install (ceiling and wall work, too) is going to be the most comfortable. Depends on what your priorities are. A well designed radiant system often is still comfortable with the operating temperature lower than with most other systems, which can help with efficiency, too.
 

Dana

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jad- The enhanced efficiency of retrofit radiant floors & ceilings will never pay back what it costs to retrofit on fuel costs. Even panel radiators can be a stretch, but maybe "worth it" on a comfort basis, and maybe pay for themselves in efficiency over time. Panel radiators were only suggested as a cheaper & nicer alternative to rjbphd's cast iron recommendation. If the place can be heated with fin-tube at condensing temps there may be a case for going that route.
 

Tom Sawyer

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I didn't think he was even considering a full radiant floor job, but yes, highest cost, lowest ROI, comfortable though.
 

Tom Sawyer

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As the price of oil stays low, there's a marked dop off in radiant and condensing gas boiler installs. That and the warm winter have played hell on boiler and furnace sales. Tough winter to make the cash. With global climate change we may all have to start putting more emphasis on cooling in the northeast.
 
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