CI Toilet flange - Inside or Outside??

Discussion in 'Plumbing Forum, Professional & DIY Advice, Tips & ' started by TedL, Feb 22, 2007.

  1. TedL

    TedL New Member

    Messages:
    604
    Location:
    NY Capital District
    My question is whether there's any reason to go to the trouble of making room for an outside mount toilet flange, rather than using an inside mount. Either flange will be all steel/CI.

    Background
    I'm refurbishing a basement half bath, on slab, including replacing floor tile and the current mounting setup for the toilet.

    Current toilet mounting consists of 4" CI with a thin steel flange mounted above it (not connected to the pipe) covered by a lead sleeve "top hat" that goes down into the pipe. The rusting flange is anchored with four rusting screws going into plastic anchors set into the concrete. Concrete touches pipe all around, so would require cutting back to make room for an outside mount flange.

    I do plan to use lead anchors and stainless screws.

    TIA.....
  2. Cass

    Cass Plumber

    Messages:
    5,980
    Location:
    Ohio
    If your replacing the tile and the tile height will be the same and the flange is not broken there should be no reason to change the flange unless the pipe below it is compromised which it may be and has been repaired with a lead covering.

    If you do replace the flange I would bust up enough concrete so you can eliminate the lead and transition from CI to plastic with a rubber coupling.
  3. prashster

    prashster New Member

    Messages:
    941
    I used an inside-mount flange too. My inspector says there's a marginally higher risk of clogs with an inside mount, but it should be fine. When you have a choice and doing an outside mount is not that much work, it's apparently a better choice, though.
  4. TedL

    TedL New Member

    Messages:
    604
    Location:
    NY Capital District
    I believe I'm looking at the original installation of this toilet, done in 1989 as part of finishing the basement - - not a repair job. Without tearing it out, I'm only speculating as to what critical purpose the lead sleeve serves beyond bridging the gap between the flange and the pipe. I think the pipe comes up (close?) to the level of the concrete, but will investigate further.

    I would like to upgrade the bent/rusting flange and attaching screws at this time while everything's convenient. Also, the concrete needs leveling which will raise the finished height, but nothing that couldn't be handled with a quarter or half inch extension flange.

    Which brings me back to my original Q, with an added assumption:

    Assuming the CI pipe extends to the floor level in good condition, is there any reason to do extra work to fit an outside mounted (no caulk) flange, as opposed to an inside mounted (no caulk) one?
  5. plumber1

    plumber1 Plumber

    Messages:
    1,423
    Location:
    Florida
    Can't you find a way to lead a deeper or longer cast iron flange back on. It would be the best way to do it. Personally any other way is almost Micky Mouse.
  6. TedL

    TedL New Member

    Messages:
    604
    Location:
    NY Capital District
    As a DIYer, I don't even attempt to do lead, but will call a pro of that's the only reliable long term solution.

    I hear you saying that the Oatey, Jones-Stephens, et. al. flanges that compress a neoprene seal are all Mickey Mouse cob jobs.

    Is that the consensus of the pros here?
  7. Cass

    Cass Plumber

    Messages:
    5,980
    Location:
    Ohio
    They make a PVC flange with a stationary gasket that is tight against the inside of the pipe as you slide it in.

    Installing an inside the pipe flange is only slightly less desirable than outside, like prashster said. PVC should work fine if secured to the floor correctly. There are literally 100s millions in service today that work fine.
  8. TedL

    TedL New Member

    Messages:
    604
    Location:
    NY Capital District
    I've seen the Oatey Twist-N-Set PVC version

    http://oatey.com/apps/catalog/showskus.asp?ctg=11&subctg=3&prodgrpid=363

    at the big orange box, and a comparable CI version at the big blue box. Either seemed like the easiest reliable way to go, but I see too many S-traps in those aisles to just assume that because a product exists on their shelves, it's a good idea to use it.
  9. TedL

    TedL New Member

    Messages:
    604
    Location:
    NY Capital District
    Upon closer inspection......

    What comes up flush with the top of the slab appears to be the hub of a 3" CI quarter bend. So, I'm looking for a flange that goes into the hub.

    Pasco Specialty shows a flange for 3" no-hub that they say can also go into a hub with a neoprene gasket. So I'll check with a local suppy house for that or a comparable item.
  10. molo

    molo Member

    Messages:
    845
    Location:
    cold new york
    good point

    Good Point about the s-traps Ted. I have learned on this forum that s-traps are unacceptable, yet If I go to my local hardware or any for that matter they pull an s-trap off the shelf and give it to me if I need to do a drain. Why is that? I just installed an s-trap for a pedestal sink. The drain came up through the floor, so I don't know how else to handle it...
    Not trying to steal your post. But I had to respond when I saw your point about s-traps.

    Molo
  11. jadnashua

    jadnashua Retired Defense Industry Engineer xxx

    Messages:
    22,059
    Location:
    New England
    An inside flange on a 4" pipe is okay, but you're pushing the limits a little with one inside of a 3" pipe. Some toilets have a 3" trapway, and you'd be adding a significant restriction right there. The walls of the thing are likely in the order of 1/4", so your opening would be down to 2.5"...not good. I'd try to get it on the outside of the pipe.
  12. TedL

    TedL New Member

    Messages:
    604
    Location:
    NY Capital District
    My analysis:
    I'd be going inside the hub of 3" pipe with the equivalent of 3" pipe, giving the full 3" (nominal) ID for passage of the toilet "output". I'm mounting a Toto Drake, with 2.125 inch trapway. I don't see any restriction.

    Am I missing something?
  13. jadnashua

    jadnashua Retired Defense Industry Engineer xxx

    Messages:
    22,059
    Location:
    New England
    Missed that it was a hub. The hub inside diameter should be around 3.5" or so (a little bigger probably). Is this what you have? If so, it should work.
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