CI Flange 1/2 " below sub-floor

Discussion in 'Toilet Forum discussions' started by molo, Jun 28, 2007.

  1. molo

    molo Member

    Messages:
    855
    Location:
    cold new york
    Hello All,

    The CI flange is 1/2" below the sub-floor. What is the best wax ring(s) to use?

    TIA,
    Molo
  2. jadnashua

    jadnashua Retired Defense Industry Engineer xxx

    Messages:
    22,319
    Location:
    New England
    I'd use a waxless adapter - Fluidmaster makes one, and there are others.

    You know, the better thing would be to reset the flange to where it is supposed to be. An alternative might be to add one or more flange extenders to raise it to the proper level, then use a conventional wax ring.

    Having a deep wax seal isn't as strong as when done with a flange at the proper level. The waxless systems rely on O-rings to make the seal. I've used both, and have not had problems with the waxless. They cost more, but are a real benefit during remodeling when the toilet may be removed periodically.
  3. molo

    molo Member

    Messages:
    855
    Location:
    cold new york
    Just a bit Small Adapter

    I went out and bought the adapter, and attempted to place the adapter over the CI Flange. The diameter of the adapter opening is around 1/16" -1/8" to small! The CI flange has a lip and if the adapter opening were just a bit bigger it would slide right over! If anyone has experience with this, please let me know!

    TIAm
    Molo
  4. markts30

    markts30 Commercial Plumber

    Messages:
    630
    Location:
    Phoenix, AZ
    Do you have access to the pipe below the floor?
    you can cut the cast iron and replace it with PVC or ABS...
    If not, a good plumber could remove the flange and lead and oakum a new one in place in short order....
  5. molo

    molo Member

    Messages:
    855
    Location:
    cold new york
    Photos- More Explanation

    Here are some photos. The screwdriver is pointing to the ring on the Cast Iron flange that is preventing (just barely) the plastic extension from comfortably sliding over it and sitting down no the flat part of the CI flange.
    Any ideas are welcome.

    TIA,
    Molo

    Attached Files:

  6. Verdeboy

    Verdeboy In the Trades

    Messages:
    2,051
    Options:

    Grind down the protruding lip of the CI flange with an angle grinder.
    Use a dremel with router bit to route out the inside of the plastic flange extenders.
    Use 2 wax rings.
    Cut out old flange and replace with PVC flange set on top of the finished floor.
    Last edited: Jul 2, 2007
  7. Cass

    Cass Plumber

    Messages:
    5,980
    Location:
    Ohio
    You can get a PVC flange that has an extension that will go over what you have there and into the old cast with either an expandable gasket or one that is stationary and slides into the pipe tight. Be sure the cast is supported if the run is long.

    The Cast should have been cut and replaced with PVC, sticking up so the sub floor and finished floor were such that when the flange was installed it sat on the finished floor.
  8. hj

    hj Moderator & Master Plumber Staff Member

    Messages:
    27,258
    Location:
    Cave Creek, Arizona
    flange

    The Cast should have been cut and replaced with PVC, sticking up so the sub floor and finished floor were such that when the flange was installed it sat on the finished floor

    A rather Draconian suggestion. Just break the flange off and lead/oakum a new one on after the floor is finished. A very, very simple job for a plumber.
  9. GrumpyPlumber

    GrumpyPlumber Licensed Grump

    Messages:
    1,404
    Location:
    Licensed Grump

    Thats what I was gonna say...be sure it's a 4" hub on the CI flange.
    Either heat and pry it up or drill to remove old lead...you know the "drill".
  10. molo

    molo Member

    Messages:
    855
    Location:
    cold new york
    flange function

    Thanks for the input,

    I like the idea of repacing with a new CI flange. I'm wondering about the PVC flange as well, where and how do you cut the cast? to put a PVC flange on? Also, someone suggested a PVC flange that sits on top of the CI flange and has a rubber extension that gets fitted tightly to the inside walls of the CI, (I'm assuming this is like the drain assembly that I used when I had to put a new shower drain in without acces to the bottom of it).
    There are a few options discussed here, one suggestion was as simple as going with two wax rings.
    All of these options have forced me to really question what exactly is the proper function/use of the flange. Does the flange be on top of the subfloor? Do you rely on it for structural strength? In the box framing repair I did underneath this floor I provided 2 x 4 box underneath the flange so that I could screw the flange to it. Is this not enough? I would really like somde good info on flange use and the function of the flange. It does surprise me that there are only two bolts holding most toilets to the floor, and they are towards the center of the toilet. It seems there should be attaching mechanisms around the outside perimiter of the bowl. Somebody please steer me in the right direction with flange function and use, as well as toilet stability.

    Thanks to anyone who has taken the time to read this and is even considering responding,
    TIA,
    Molo
  11. jadnashua

    jadnashua Retired Defense Industry Engineer xxx

    Messages:
    22,319
    Location:
    New England
    The toilet base has a fairly large area, so anchoring it in the middle works pretty well. Adding some caulk around the outer rim also helps anchor it in place and helps you keep it more sanitary since "stuff" can't seep underneath the toilet.
  12. molo

    molo Member

    Messages:
    855
    Location:
    cold new york
    Thaks Jad,
    I would still like to know what some of you pros think about this? Is it a design flaw that most toilets don't have a means to secure the perimiter of the bowl to the subfloor? It seems to easy for a big person, or a wild college couple, to rock one off and break whatever wax seal is there.

    What do you folks think, Is this a common sense thing that is being overlooked?

    Molo
  13. frenchie

    frenchie Jack of all trades

    I've always thought the connection was under-specced... but that's just me being paranoid. They've been working fine, for a long, long, time.

    I have to disagree with Jadnashua about the caulk: that'd create a problem for the person who has to pull the toilet later. Part of the reason for the wax ring seal is that you can pull the toilet relatively easily...

    Also - caulk works both ways, so if there was a leak it couldn't find a way out.

    One reason you want the only connection to be @ the flange, is so that if something goes wrong, you'll know about it; additional fastening might conceal problems.
  14. Cass

    Cass Plumber

    Messages:
    5,980
    Location:
    Ohio
    Caulking a toilet down is a funny subject.

    In Some jurisdictions it is mandatory, some want it all the way around others the back stays open and in places like here there is no requirement either way or at all.

    There are pros and cons to doing it or not.
    Last edited: Jul 4, 2007
  15. jadnashua

    jadnashua Retired Defense Industry Engineer xxx

    Messages:
    22,319
    Location:
    New England
    Most places seem to want it open in the back. Consider the little guys who miss...guess where it goes, under the toilet. Guess what you have to do to clean it out, tear out the toilet. Do that more than a few times, and you'll see the benefit of the caulk. How often do you remove a toilet? Unless you have a structural problem, it only happens when you remodel. Having a little trouble getting it out seems like a small price to pay once every 10-20 years...
  16. Cass

    Cass Plumber

    Messages:
    5,980
    Location:
    Ohio
    Why would replacing old cast during a project where new joice's and new sub and finish floor was being installed be "draconian"?

    I would think it prudent.

    I try and replace as much old cast as possible when ever the situation presents it's self and is feasible.

    Replacing the CI flange with another CI flange is an option.

    Reguardless there is no sub floor for the cast or plastic to sit on.
  17. molo

    molo Member

    Messages:
    855
    Location:
    cold new york
    How would I have done this if I wanted to replace the cast and raise it the 1" i would have needed to get it above the subfloor? That's what I'll do next time!

    TIA,
    Molo
  18. Verdeboy

    Verdeboy In the Trades

    Messages:
    2,051
    I think HJ was being facetious.

    Regarding caulking around the base of a toilet:

    IMHO, it is essential to do this for an upstairs bathroom. That way, if a toilet or tub overflows, the water will be less likely to go through to the room below.
  19. GrumpyPlumber

    GrumpyPlumber Licensed Grump

    Messages:
    1,404
    Location:
    Licensed Grump
    "Notes on job: week one, still working on decision as to what to do about CI flange"
  20. molo

    molo Member

    Messages:
    855
    Location:
    cold new york
    Note to Grumpy; Still Learning; In No Hurry.

    "How would I have done this if I wanted to replace the cast and raise it the 1" i would have needed to get it above the subfloor? That's what I'll do next time!" NEXT TIME, Means NOT THIS TIME


    I guess you didn't have time to answer the question, that's too bad. Perhaps somebody else can tell me about cutting and raising a CI Flange.
    Last edited: Jul 6, 2007
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