Changing shower tub trim and need help! Powers 410 Hydroguard

Discussion in 'Shower & Bathtub Forum & Blog' started by angel9894, Oct 24, 2011.

  1. angel9894

    angel9894 New Member

    Messages:
    27
    Location:
    NYC
    I am doing a remodel of my bathrooms and want to change the showerheads, spouts and control levers in my 2 full bathrooms. I brought in a few contractors who said we "HAD" to do all this extensive stuff and long story short quoted anywhere from 6-10k just for the plumbing (NYC pricing, ha!) This is a highrise building and doing anything with opening up walls is a pain and expensive!

    So I then had the maintenance guy from my building come in since he is doing a bunch of work on the side for us (installing new toilets, light fixtures, vanities etc), and he said that it's NOT necessary to do anything with the plumbing, I can just change out the trim with any trim kit I find that I like.

    So here is my question:
    Currently the showers use these "Powers Hydroguard 410" lever controls 044.JPG 042.JPG 086.JPG 085.JPG

    He said they have a brass valve and he can supply any of the valves needed and any standard trim kit should work. I want to buy a mid-range Kohler trim set to replace these fixtures with. I know ideally it would be better to change out the whole shower body, but we simply don't have the kind of money it costs to do it right now.

    What do I need to look for in a trim set to replace this? Should I still buy a kit that has a valve or no need. I'm looking for something on ************.com but confused.

    Any help would be greatly appreciated to this total newbie!
  2. Terry

    Terry Administrator Staff Member

    Messages:
    15,408
    Location:
    Bothell, Washington
    Your handyman doesn't seem to have a clue about the valve and the trim for it.

    You have to use the trim that is made for the valve in the wall. Either that, or change the valve in the wall.

    What is standard, is the shower arm. That threads into a 1/2" female fitting in the wall, so any standard shower arm, or shower head will work.

    The tub spout is also a standard 1/2" pipe thread.

    powers_410_breakdown.jpg

    PB410.jpg
    Last edited: Oct 24, 2011
  3. Jerome2877

    Jerome2877 In the Trades

    Messages:
    397
    Location:
    BC
    You can replace a valve by using a reno plate, basically you open up the tile and replace the valve then use the plate to cover the larger hole that you made. For a pro your looking at about 2 hours. Thats not what the handy man in your bulding is LOL! What happens when he causes a leak and floods out the building? I would go with a licenced plumber who knows what he's talking about.
  4. angel9894

    angel9894 New Member

    Messages:
    27
    Location:
    NYC
    Not to defend him as I have no dog in this fight, but he isn't a "handyman". He is a union member licensed plumber and electrician in NYC and one of the 20 year Maintenance men for the building who handles all the building and electrical plumbing. Maybe he didn't know exactly what I was asking via telephone, or rather, maybe I misunderstood what he was telling me.

    I just checked and I found the updated version of those old Powers ones and it was over $400.00 just for the lever replacement.

    Powers PB410.jpg

    So is there no Kohler or Grohe or nice replacement I can buy?

    As for opening up the tile and replacing the valve, opening up the tile does not = opening up the wall does it? My building requires a 5k deposit to do anything that requires opening walls.

    Again, thanks for you patience with me!
    Last edited: Oct 24, 2011
  5. angel9894

    angel9894 New Member

    Messages:
    27
    Location:
    NYC
    So excluding the lever/valve issue, I can replace the Shower Head and the tub spout with most standard ones?

    We are renting the apartment out and my Dad's given me a tiny budget so I have to find ways to update the bathrooms at minimal cost :(
  6. Terry

    Terry Administrator Staff Member

    Messages:
    15,408
    Location:
    Bothell, Washington
    If your guy has done it, then let him find the parts.

    That's not how it works in the rest of the world though. For the rest of us, you would normally find parts that mate up.
    Manufacturers don't make parts that interchange.

    I also can't use Toyota parts in my Mitsubishi.

    The picture you posted shows a complete valve with trim. Can you buy just the trim?
    And if you go to the Powers web site, you should be able to contact their tech support and they should know your options. That has to be a common question for them.
  7. angel9894

    angel9894 New Member

    Messages:
    27
    Location:
    NYC
    Thanks Terry!
    I submitted a tech support request to them 2 days ago asking this question, which I'm sure you're right, must be common! Unfortunately, nothing heard back yet.

    In the meantime, am I ok to go ahead and at least buy new shower heads and spouts?
  8. Terry

    Terry Administrator Staff Member

    Messages:
    15,408
    Location:
    Bothell, Washington
    The shower head and spouts are generic, being standard 1/2" thread. Yes.
  9. angel9894

    angel9894 New Member

    Messages:
    27
    Location:
    NYC
    Thank you!

    This is the best forum EVER for people like me. Really appreciated and so glad I found it :)
  10. Jerome2877

    Jerome2877 In the Trades

    Messages:
    397
    Location:
    BC
    The valve is in the wall, so it looks like you would have to do the deposit to replace the valve.
  11. jimbo

    jimbo Plumber

    Messages:
    8,997
    Location:
    San Diego
    Well, you definitely can NOT just change out the trim with "any kit you like". That just doesn't work and if he told you that he is out of his mind. Now, Powers I think does make some kits to upgrade the 400. Check the Powers website, or find a large plumbing supply that deals with Powers.

    I hear that NYC is a big place, so I don't know if this particular recommendation will help you:

    New York Replacement Parts
    1456 Lexington Avenue
    New York, NY 10128-2507
    (212) 534-0818
  12. hj

    hj Moderator & Master Plumber Staff Member

    Messages:
    27,230
    Location:
    Cave Creek, Arizona
    You can use any POWERS trim that fits the model 410, but NOTHING made by Kohler, Moen, Delta, or ANY OTHER manufacturer will work. ANY "plumber" who tells you that you can get "can just change out the trim with any trim kit I find that I like", is NOT a plumber, regardless of how many years he has worked.
  13. angel9894

    angel9894 New Member

    Messages:
    27
    Location:
    NYC
    Hey guys, so it seems that the maintenance guy and I were having a misscommunication. He thought i was talking about the head and spout and not the controller, which he said the same thing ya'll said.

    Sooooo, I did find that updated version of the 410 but I don't see a way to change just the "look" of it. It seems like they only sell that whole thing with the valve or nothing. So confused. I submitted a tech support request days ago to Powers and no one replied back yet.

    Jimbo I'm going to call that plumbing store now. Hopefully they can help me figure something out. Very frustrating that I so limited in options :(
  14. angel9894

    angel9894 New Member

    Messages:
    27
    Location:
    NYC
    Jimbo, after speaking to the plumbing store you gave the contact info for (thank you) I was told that I am the LUCKY (ha) owner of a Powers unit that CANNOT be upgraded via any kind of trim. He said the new sleeker version of the 410 has a whole new valve and there's no way to just change the trim without upgrading the valve.

    I know that you guys live around the country and everywhere is different, but when getting contractors in for estimates for the general bathroom remodel, I got quotes of anywhere from 6-10k JUST for the plumbing. Which I just don't have. So with that said, you said that it would take about 2 hours to open the wall tile and to make the changes to install a new valve and it shouldn't be that complicated a job for someone who is experienced with this kind of thing. Am I understanding that correctly. Because some of the guys tried to tell me I should replace the whole "shower body" etc etc etc and it would cost a fortune.

    What (ball park estimate?) do you think I'm looking at cost wise for someone to come in to do the valve change and ONLY the valve change and is it ok (I know not ideal but ok) to do that and not the whole sha-bang?

    Also, another technical question, I am having the shower walls re-tiled anyway but the company re-tiling doesn't do plumbing (isn't licencsed for plumbing I should say). The plumber would be the one to remove the tile around the valve and then patch the wall back correct? Just want to make sure I order things correctly.

    Again, thanks so much for all your help guys and again, please forgive this "manicure and makeup" girls ignorance of all things plumbing. I did 2 kitchen and bathroom renovations in Florida and it was just WAY less complicated than this apartment in NYC and my contractor did 2 x the work for 3 x LESS the cost. The estimates and quotes from the NYC guys are so long and expensive and complicated, it's just a very different animal. I had the florida bathroom completely renovated with new tile, fixtures, shower valves, EVERYTHING for $2500.00 and in NY they are saying it's 10K JUST for the plumbing part. Head. IS. SPINNING!
  15. jadnashua

    jadnashua Retired Defense Industry Engineer xxx

    Messages:
    22,313
    Location:
    New England
    If you're having the tile redone, then the valve body would be exposed and much easier to replace. So, then the hardest part is getting the plumber and the tile guy to coordinate so the job can be done without them either interfering with each other or paying one to sit around while waiting for the other. Well, there is another issue: do you have an individual unit water shutoff? WIthout that, or shutoff valves in the wall, you'd have to shut the water off for the building, and that can be a major hassle and time consuming for it to drain down enough so new stufff could be soldered in (you can't solder pipes with water in them.
  16. angel9894

    angel9894 New Member

    Messages:
    27
    Location:
    NYC
    We DO have individual shower water supply shut off and I've actually already had it shut off I believe. I will double check to be sure.

    So assuming that's the case, then I basically need to coordinate the plumber with the tile guys so that the Plumber comes in to do his part after the tile guys remove the old tile and before they get ready to put in the new tile. Which of course, will be a PITA lol.

    But replacing the valve and ONLY the valve is possible without having to change the whole shower body, right? I mean, this *should* be able to be done without it costing me two legs?
  17. jadnashua

    jadnashua Retired Defense Industry Engineer xxx

    Messages:
    22,313
    Location:
    New England
    It is hard to say how easy or hard it will be to retile, or if it really should be just retiled verses tearout completely and start over. But, once the tile is off (and you may find the only way to do that would tear up what's beneath so much it costs about the same to replace the whole thing), changing the valve is the easy thing. A full new shower could easily cost $6k or more in NYC. Depending on the age of the thing, the shower pan may be on borrowed time. It's really hard to tell.
  18. Joe the Plumber

    Joe the Plumber Pluumbing, of course

    Messages:
    48
    If you are removing and replacing tile, and you have a way to shut off your own water, then changing the tub/shower valve is not that much work. You will never find a better time to do it.
  19. hj

    hj Moderator & Master Plumber Staff Member

    Messages:
    27,230
    Location:
    Cave Creek, Arizona
    Three things about your original posting which make it impossible for us to give any opinion on the pricing.
    1. NYC. that makes access to your jobsite an unknown
    2. High rise. This means elevators which can add immense time to the job, especially if they have to use the freight elevator.
    3. Water shutoff. If there are not local valves for your unit or floor, (not the ones on the valve itself which will have to be removed), then the entire building may have to be shut off, which often means "after hours", and lengthy drain downs, which means additional costs.
    4. "replacing the valve" IS "changing the whole shower body". The shower body IS the valve.
    Last edited: Oct 26, 2011
  20. angel9894

    angel9894 New Member

    Messages:
    27
    Location:
    NYC
    Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhh ok, so changing the valve is changing the whole body. I got it. So I guess I have to find out about the local valves. Really sux that the building stuck us with this version of shower valves that is so costly to update :(
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