Ceiling Fan (existing) - adding 4 recessed lights non IC

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stev379

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Hi,
My kitchen's ceiling fan wiring is as below and I'm adding four 5" recessed lights that are not IC rated. My first question is should I return them and get IC rated lights? I have attic access though it's tight. There's blown insulation and I'm concerned about cold winters. I don't mind and there is enough room to build enclosures if it gets that cold, but I don't know if it's better to just get IC rated lights. It's a 20 mile drive to nearest hardware store with such supplies so grabbed the lights that came with everything included so I won't miss a component and have to make multiple trips. Unfortunately, they're not IC rated.

CEILING FAN WIRING
The line comes from the breaker to the light switch, then goes out toward the fan and is cut and spliced with elec tape so it's hard see all internal wires, but it looks like a blk, wht, red, grd get spliced into a blk, wht and grd and continues without the red.
then to a box with one wire going in and one wire going out. Each wire houses a black, a white and a ground.
from that box to the ceiling fan,
Wires spider out of the fan's box
#1 from the fan to another mounted light switch+outlet
#2 from the fan to an outlet
#3 from the fan to another outlet
#4 from the fan to a box nailed to a stud in the attic and termites there with a blk, wht and grd.
The fan below the ceiling is mounted with a blk to blk, a grd to 4 grd's and a wht to 4 wht's.


Second question is about wiring.
I pulled the cover from the box on #4 above, ran a matching wire set and twisted one of the lights into it. It works, but it's got constant power. The light switch turns off the fan and fan's light, but the recessed light stays on.

Once I get one light working, I understand how to daisy the wires to the rest of them.
How do I connect the recessed light to the fan so that the recessed light turns on and off along with the fan?
The fan has a pull chain so we can turn it off and leave the recessed lights on I believe.

With any luck, I'll get at least 2 of the new lights installed before my wife's guests show up on New Year's Eve. :eek:

I've been to the Google and have been studying for the past couple days about this, but my own wiring has me confused.
Thanks for any hep or suggestions!
 

JWelectric

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Is this joint with all the black tape in a box?

have you opened the fan box to see what is inside?
 

stev379

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I think I figured it out. Details below. Sorry I ramble. I'm enjoying this project even as cramped and annoying as that particular area in our attic is.

Is this joint with all the black tape in a box?
No

have you opened the fan box to see what is inside?
Yes. I installed\replaced the newer fan a couple weeks ago. It was too dim, hence the decision to do the recessed lights now. We were planning do them in a couple years, but I enjoy working on the house and we needed the light and liked this particular fan.

The Details:
I'll provide extra details so others may learn as well.
This is in the corner of the attic (smaller side of split level) where the roof meets the wall. After spending $10 on a disposable suit with gloves, mask, cloth boot covers and a full body suit at HD, I managed to carefully rake (plastic) the blown insulation out of the way after checking for wires. I put down a few extra boards here and there to cover the 16" studs, got on my belly, slid forward into the slant of the roof, using an extendable mirror pole, head lamp and led flashlight, I was able to move the extra insulation out of the way by hand which included some rolled insulation in the deep edge along the top of the studs. I found the wire that looked like it came directly from the breaker box to the above where I know a light switch on the wall next to our sink to reside. This is where we want to connect the recessed lights now. This is a different line than the fan so we can turn the fan on with its current dimmer and separately turn on the recessed lights.
Here's the breakdown of that line and the line from the light switch it connects to, to the light.
Line from the breaker runs down the wall to a light switch
line from light switch runs up that wall over one stud and down through a larger enough hole hidden behind an ornamental bridge between the cabinets on the left and right sides of the sink to a florescent light over the sink. This was a lucky break to find with the mirror.
I ran a line down the wall through that same hole and am tying it in to the blk, wht and grd on the light.
That line will run from the light to the first recessed light, to the 2nd, 3rd and 4th.
I should be good as the breaker this is going on has enough spare amps, but I'm double checking before flipping the final switch tomorrow. I ran all the lines in the attic tonight and drilled the 4 small drill bit holes to mark the spots. I checked the circles to make sure there's enough room between studs for the lamps. I taped the lines in the attic down next to the larger hole markings I made that I'll drill in the morning after my daughter wakes up. The kitchen's too close to her room or I'd do it tonight.
I double checked each lamp at the store to be sure it had all 4 clips to hold it in place. About half of them in the store were missing 1 or 2 clips. This only makes sense if you don't have the rails to mount your lamp to the studs. I got the remodel type of lamps.
I checked the lamps tonight and realized 2 of them were loose at the bottom and because you have to be cautious of the sharp edges even if wearing gloves, it took about 15-20 minutes to loosen the wing nut, remove the L bracket, pull up on the circle piece that has the lamp socket mounted to it and get one hand under it to pinch the clips while holding the L bracket in place on top of the socket so I could mount the L bracket to it again. Then lay the lamp in my lap, hold the L bracket on top of it's mounting bolts and screw the wing nut back in place.

I'm eager to cut the larger holes in the morning. I have an adjustable hole cutter and that part should go quick. Then I just grab the wires I taped down, pull them through and connect the first lamp to the wire from the florescent lamp, then connect blk to blk and wht to wht and grd to grd to run a wire to the second lamp and so on to the 4th.

I'll let you know how it goes tomorrow. ...and I'll try to keep that shorter unless the details of the wiring change.

Thanks
 

stev379

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I do I have related question. I got flat glass covers for the recessed lights. Do I need to get a baffle as well? If yes, what risk do I run by installing it without the baffle for one day tomorrow so my wife will happy when we have people over? :p

Thanks!
 

hj

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quote; I'll provide extra details so others may learn as well.
You are assuming that YOUR solution will help someone else, but that would be the "blind leading the blind"

Your original question and the subsequent "solution" are so rambling that it is difficult to follow them, or even continue to the end of the "story". The simple answer is that you connect the lights to the black and white wires AT THE FAN, and disregard everything else. BUT, from the little I can decipher in the original posting I question whether it is even done properly or are there taped connections in the attic? As for the trim rings, a baffle will focus the light whereas a "flat glass" will diffuse it over a larger area. You can seldom use both on the same lighht.
 
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stev379

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quote; I'll provide extra details so others may learn as well.
You are assuming that YOUR solution will help someone else, but that would be the "blind leading the blind"

Your original question and the subsequent "solution" are so rambling that it is difficult to follow them, or even continue to the end of the "story". The simple answer is that you connect the lights to the black and white wires AT THE FAN, and disregard everything else. BUT, from the little I can decipher in the original posting I question whether it is even done properly or are there taped connections in the attic? As for the trim rings, a baffle will focus the light whereas a "flat glass" will diffuse it over a larger area. You can seldom use both on the same lighht.


As previously stated, sorry about the ramble above. Perhaps my rambling was too much text and you didn't see the sentence "This is a different line than the fan so we can turn the fan on with its current dimmer and separately turn on the recessed lights.". I read help forums online and sometimes misunderstand because someone like me didn't add the extra detail. Also, when I said "so others may learn", I didn't say learn from me because I am right. To be clear I meant so others may learn from what I do right or wrong. If I detail it and someone with your extensive knowledge finds issue with my method, then I would hope you would post a correction "so others may learn". Sorry to be so vague.

Thanks for the advice on the baffles. What I meant with that question was are you supposed to use a baffle along with the flat glass cover. The instructions and diagrams are poor, but weren't clear if they were covering 2 different options between the baffle and the flat glass or if they were covering 2 steps, first install the baffle, then the flat glass. I figured it out, but your statement also cleared it up. No need for the baffle. :)

As stated, I ran the line
from the breaker to a light switch (separate from the fan)
From that switch to an existing florescent light
from that light to the first recessed light, to the 2nd, 3rd and 4th.
It's working, but I'm still wrapping up mounting the lights from below. Having a little trouble getting them to stay flush.

I'll put that taped joint from another post in a box when I go up to the attic to put the insulation back in place. That joint looks like it may be from the original build if the house 23 years ago.

Thanks again for any tips as I go with this project.
 

JWelectric

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In your first post you stated these are Non-IC cans, if so then don’t put the insulation back in place unless you are wanting to cause a fire.
 

hj

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quote;

Perhaps my rambling was too much text and you didn't see the sentence "This is a different line than the fan so we can turn the fan on with its current dimmer and separately turn on the recessed lights.".

You are correct, I did NOT see that sentence, but I did see this one.

How do I connect the recessed light to the fan so that the recessed light turns on and off along with the fan?
From your description of what you did, "I ran the line
from the breaker to a light switch (separate from the fan)
From that switch to an existing florescent light
from that light to the first recessed light, to the 2nd, 3rd and 4th.", it appears that you did NOT wire them so they came on with the fan so you could use the pull chain to turn the fan on and off. IF so, then your "solution" had NOTHING to do with the original question.
 
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stev379

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quote;

Perhaps my rambling was too much text and you didn't see the sentence "This is a different line than the fan so we can turn the fan on with its current dimmer and separately turn on the recessed lights.".

You are correct, I did NOT see that sentence, but I did see this one.

How do I connect the recessed light to the fan so that the recessed light turns on and off along with the fan?
From your description of what you did, "I ran the line
from the breaker to a light switch (separate from the fan)
From that switch to an existing florescent light
from that light to the first recessed light, to the 2nd, 3rd and 4th.", it appears that you did NOT wire them so they came on with the fan so you could use the pull chain to turn the fan on and off. IF so, then your "solution" had NOTHING to do with the original question.

lol :) Nothing but good spirits here.
Trying not to stray too far from the actual topic, you are correct, but it was the to the second post of mine I was referring to when I replied to you. It was between those 2 posts (1st at work, and the 2nd after I went to Home Depot an hour later), that I changed my mind on which light switch to use and the fan was removed from the equation. I apologize for my lack of clarity. Trying to sort of rush to get the project done while not rushing through the actual tasks I moved too quick with my questions.

I did not use the fan's light switch. I used a switch on the other side of the kitchen.
The lights are now wired to a light switch that is on the wall next to the sink and has always turned on 1 florescent light above the sink. I ran the line down from the attic to that light and tied in, which then ran to the first recessed light, 2nd, 3rd and 4th. All connections were blk to blk, wht to wht and grd to grd.

I installed a plastic junction box for the splice\joint I mentioned earlier. Wish I knew why that was thrown in there. I traced the entire line so it's not leading to anything I'm unaware of.

The wife wasn't impressed with the amount of sheetrock dust when I began drilling the first hole so I stopped and drilled from above. Already had the small marker holes drilled. I'm sure I'm not the first to come up with this, but I taped garbage bags up around the holes to be drilled. When I drilled from above, the hole fell down in the bag. To be safe, I had my someone hold the bags from underneath so they wouldn't break free of the tape.

A tip for anyone else doing this is to go with IC rated lights if you have any concern about your heating. Others may say it won't affect the bills that much but for me it's a piece of mind thing.

I tried to attach pics, but the jpgs wont upload. It could be the network I'm on. Sorry again for the rambling. I just don't like reading a thread where someone worked through a project and says they got something working, but leaves the details out. If I did something wrong please post saying so to be sure that nobody makes the same mistake after reading my post. I wouldn't have posted at all had to decided not to use the fan's switch from the start.


Happy New Year!
 
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