carrier question for wall hung toilet

Discussion in 'Plumbing Forum, Professional & DIY Advice, Tips & ' started by diymomma, Oct 7, 2013.

  1. diymomma

    diymomma New Member

    Messages:
    8
    Location:
    Waterloo Ontario
    I'm remodeling the basement powder room to add a shower. I figured I would replace the old blue wall hung toilet with a new one, either the AS or the Gerber mentioned here (still undecided which). I wish there were nicer looking wall hung with exposed tanks (just don't trust a tank I can't look into, that's why the high tank toilet in the main floor powder is getting replaced too.) Use the old carrier, attach new toilet, no problem, right? Well the plumber I had out here over the weekend says the old toilet is not vented, so the old cast iron on the other side of the wall will have to have a chunk cut out, and tied in to a vent (luckily all is above the concrete floor in the utility room). He said the new plumbing put in will be pvc, which will not connect to the old carrier, so I won't be able to reuse the carrier. If this is so, then what carrier do I get for either of the two toilets I mentioned? I've looked on the spec sheets, and neither one says anything about it. Or is there a way to use the old cast iron connection with the carrier with the pvc he puts in?

    Thanks for any input.
  2. Terry

    Terry Administrator Staff Member

    Messages:
    15,004
    Location:
    Bothell, Washington
    A wall hung toilet can be vented within six feet.
    How is he sure that the vent isn't downline of the fixture and in a different wall?

    Do you have a picture of your current setup?
    Going from cast to PVC isn't a big deal.
  3. diymomma

    diymomma New Member

    Messages:
    8
    Location:
    Waterloo Ontario
    The wall is completely open on the other side- right next to the furnace, etc. for all to see. He said the powder room sink is vented though, so plans are to tie in to that vent stack I think. My contractor and plumber seemed to agree that the carrier needed to be changed, but I still didn't understand why. I'll get some photos in the morning and see if I can post them. I think part of it is that both seem dubious of just exchanging the toilet. They thought they don't make them like that anymore, the carrier bolts would be in the wrong place, etc. I told them what I read here, and their response was "Terry who?" Seriously now, have they never done any kind of toilet research online?
    Part of me says "just find a new plumber" and part of me says "give up on the wall hung, get a floor mount back outlet toilet" (like the Maier on Signature Hardware) maybe they won't be as afraid of that.

    I'll try to get some pics of the situation.
    thanks
  4. Terry

    Terry Administrator Staff Member

    Messages:
    15,004
    Location:
    Bothell, Washington
    I'm not surprised they don't know me, but working with wall hung toilets is a pretty simple thing. They should know that if it's a four bolt carrier, that any four bolt wall hung will work. We replace them all the time.
    It sounds like they either want a bigger job, or they are just a little clueless.
    My mother still has an American Standard Glenwall in her master from 1962. Her main bathroom has a newer pressure assist Glenwall.
    We've been selling one a month, and at the moment I have the Gerber Maxwell Wall Hung ready to go in inventory.
    http://www.terrylove.com/forums/sho...enwall-wall-mount-toilet-and-Yorkville-review

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    You may have something like this.

    [​IMG]

    Mifab Residential Carrier
    Last edited: Oct 7, 2013
  5. hj

    hj Moderator & Master Plumber Staff Member

    Messages:
    26,641
    Location:
    Cave Creek, Arizona
    If they used a carrier "frame" like Terry shows, then there could be any kind of fitting in the wall behind it. But, if they used a carrier with integral fitting, which most plumbers would, I have NEVER seen one which did not have provision for a vent, even if the installer did not use it for some reason. How about a picture of what is in the wall. The new toilet will fit the carrier EXACTLY, and if they do not know that, then they may NOT be "plumbers".
  6. Terry

    Terry Administrator Staff Member

    Messages:
    15,004
    Location:
    Bothell, Washington
    I think hj may have a point there. Have you checked to see if he is one?
  7. diymomma

    diymomma New Member

    Messages:
    8
    Location:
    Waterloo Ontario


    Just took my contractors word for it. He re-routed the washer drain for me, and seemed to know what he was doing there (and my washer now drains properly). I'm not sure if you can make anything out from the photos I took, but I'll post (if I can figure out how) them just in case. I'm thinking I should get a different plumber in for an estimate before I get any more work done.
    P1010047.jpg

    P1010040.jpg

    P1010041.jpg
    [​IMG]
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 8, 2013
  8. hj

    hj Moderator & Master Plumber Staff Member

    Messages:
    26,641
    Location:
    Cave Creek, Arizona
    They did use a "face plate" style carrier, but the vent is the pipe connected to the line which goes vertically, although it would be nice to see what is behind that "blue" object. I might also be concerned, since they do not seem to know much about wall mount toilets, that they may NOT install it correctly with the proper "backup nuts and washers" behind the bowl. There is more to it than just putting the toilet over the bolts and screwing the nuts on.
    Last edited: Oct 8, 2013
  9. Terry

    Terry Administrator Staff Member

    Messages:
    15,004
    Location:
    Bothell, Washington
    To hj and I, that's the toilet vent.
    It looks like someone recently added a PVC wye fitting to that, perhaps someone is now using the "vent" for some other fixture now?
    Previous to that, it was a Santee behind the toilet acting as a vent. The Santee on it's back is not a waste fitting there, but had been used for vents in the past.

    So looking at that again, is he using the toilet vent for a washer drain?
    [​IMG]
    Last edited: Oct 8, 2013
  10. diymomma

    diymomma New Member

    Messages:
    8
    Location:
    Waterloo Ontario
    Yes, he is using that for the washer drain. I think the washer was draining into it already, but in a very round about and uphill way (the washer drained into a small pipe only a foot off the floor, went several feet at a minimal pitch, through the wall, around the corner where all the other plumbing is, up hill for about 6 feet while rising abut 4 feet, then that emptied into a pipe that came back towards what you are calling the toilet vent. I think the sink drained into it too. My clothes were always wet dripping going into the dryer. I wish I had taken some before photos, I can't remember exactly how everything was tied in. The plan is for them to come back and get a pump in the ground for the new shower, rough everything in, and tie in to a vent that he has capped right now (you might be able to see it near the top right in the new photos. Sure better be a vent. They had me run water through all the plumbing upstairs, and nothing came out the pipe, so they said it is a vent they can use. I think maybe the old sink was tied into it. The blue thing is my hot water.

    It is a plumber my contractor uses. He is fairly young, and I don't think he had ever seen a wall hung with exposed tank like that before. I have a different plumber coming out to remove a 1980's repro high tank and rough in for a Toto Guinevere in the first floor powder room next week. Maybe I should have him take a look at my basement situation before allowing the other guys to do any more work? He already hooked up a Toto for me upstairs, and seemed pretty knowledgeable.

    P1010052.jpg

    photo 1- far side of water tank.

    P1010054.jpg

    Photo 2- washer drain from left, into the waste pipe, pipe going to right goes behind the water tank.

    P1010055.jpg

    Photo 3-behind the water tank.

    P1010056.jpg

    photo 4- vent? they plan on using.
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 8, 2013
  11. Terry

    Terry Administrator Staff Member

    Messages:
    15,004
    Location:
    Bothell, Washington
    [​IMG]

    It looks like the lav to the right was wet venting the toilet, and then the vent continued up to the vent 90 near the ceiling.
    The lav has been cut out, and now the washer is draining into the toilet vent. No plumbing code allows that, but that's what someone did.

    [​IMG]

    This standpipe with p-trap is not vented. Maybe not a big deal if that is just for furnace condensation.
    Last edited: Oct 8, 2013
  12. diymomma

    diymomma New Member

    Messages:
    8
    Location:
    Waterloo Ontario
    The plumber went ahead and removed the lav in anticipation of the remodel since neither sink or toilet was functional right now. When they put a lav back in during the remodel, and vent back up, will that be venting the toilet again? And where should the washer be draining into? When they re-routed things, it was a stop-gap measure to get the washer draining better (I didn't want to wait for 2 months until my contractor can start the full remodel, I was afraid it might kill my washer in the mean time.) The toilet has been disconnected from the water supply already.

    The standpipe is just for furnace condensation now.

    I'm glad a permit is going to be pulled for the project, so I know it has to pass inspection at the end.
  13. hj

    hj Moderator & Master Plumber Staff Member

    Messages:
    26,641
    Location:
    Cave Creek, Arizona
    quote; went several feet at a minimal pitch, through the wall, around the corner where all the other plumbing is, up hill for about 6 feet while rising abut 4 feet, then that emptied into a pipe that came back towards what you are calling the toilet vent.

    Unless they have discovered antigravity, or new laws of physics, water does NOT run uphill for 6 feet and the rise another 4 feet before connecting to a drain line.
  14. jadnashua

    jadnashua Retired Defense Industry Engineer xxx

    Messages:
    22,013
    Location:
    New England
    The only way that might work is if the WM hose was sealed to the drain, and then, when the pump turned off, a bunch of that water would run back down into the WM...neither situation is 'right'.
  15. diymomma

    diymomma New Member

    Messages:
    8
    Location:
    Waterloo Ontario
    Yeah, well, the hose was pushed into the drain -a somewhat snug fit atleast- and I can say that the water running back into the WM was not the cleanest. Ugh.
    What I meant was a rise of 4 feet over a run of 6 feet. Certainly not ideal. That is why I decided to have my GC get the washer and dryer moved over in anticipation of the remodel and get the WM drain sorted out right away. The remodel is supposed to happen in a month, but I didn't see any point in waiting to get my WM draining. I don't want my WM dying on me in the mean time.
  16. hj

    hj Moderator & Master Plumber Staff Member

    Messages:
    26,641
    Location:
    Cave Creek, Arizona
    quote; What I meant was a rise of 4 feet over a run of 6 feet.

    Regardless, water CANNOT flow up hill even if it were 4".
  17. diymomma

    diymomma New Member

    Messages:
    8
    Location:
    Waterloo Ontario
    P1010057.jpg hJust came across a photo from before the plumber came in. You see the toilet vent, and just above it is the WM drain pipe running at about a 45 degree angle-with the water flow going from left to right. Follow the line it makes to the other side of the water tank, and you see where it drops into a drain pipe. Love that my inspector didn't notice this at all, makes me wonder what other fun suprised await me as I work on the house. Reminds me, I need to update my location- no longer in Waterloo, now in Stoneham, MA.

    And yes, I do know that water does not flow uphill- it can only go as far as the WM pump makes it go. No clue who put it in like that or what they were thinking.
    Last edited: Oct 11, 2013
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