Candid discussion on gas piping risks

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Engineer Ben

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Hello to the tradesmen on the forum. I would like candid comments on running gas piping. I know this is a perennial question, so I'd like to compare this with your opinion on the risks of other self-performed work as you see them.

1. In your opinion, is running low pressure black steel residential natural gas piping more or less dangerous than the following:
A. Installing fuel and brake lines on a car.
B. Riding a chopped motorcycle one built oneself.

I design and specify plumbing systems and have a good trades background. I have built houses nearly from the ground up and am very comfortable sleeping in the house I wired myself or working in the garrage I ran a 100 amp sub-panel to where I weld, etc.

In conclusion, is this work within the grasp of a very handy individual comfortable with risks similar to those discussed above, or do you believe there are some intangible risks that one without the experience just cannot realize?

Additionally, I work with permitting and code officials on a daily basis. I have not been particularly impressed with their rigor and attention to inspections since I work inspecting these systems on large projects for the owner. In my opinion, their judgement is no better than mine, though I am a unique case as far as DIY'ers go. If I were to have this work done professionally what would I as the owner do to actually verify that the contractor's work was up to snuff?

Thanks for the comments,
Cheers
 

Jimbo

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Human nature being what it is, there are plenty of folks who will continue to do all of the above. Darwin's law will catch up with some of them. Sometimes theses forums are able to provide the little nugget of information to head off disaster.
 

Engineer Ben

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Thanks for the thoughts so far. It's hard to convince an one like me who has seen the gas installers testing a line by igniting the end of it that he can't install some threaded pipe and check it carefully. Furthermore, I've seen a gas meter fall off the wall before with no direct cause. (Improperly tightened connection). When the gas company came to fix it they wrapped a coathanger around a nail as support. I went back and put in strut.

I completely understand the warnings against risky jobs for the general public. Yet I have always wanted to know just how risky the tradesmen are trying to say something is. Every time you crawl under your car of course you COULD knock out the jack and it is riskier than having it on an overhead lift. But if I have jacks, blocks and double check everything then I'm not going to worry about it and most tradesmen I've worked with would probably call you a "wuss" to be too cautious to get under a car.

I guess what I'm saying is that I understand it poses some danger. If it is not objectively more dangerous than things which careful, double-checking, patient, mechanically inclined guys can do - I'm not going to worry about it.
 

Jadnashua

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My personal opinion, screwing black pipe fittings together without a leak isn't all that hard. Verifying it doesn't leak is a little harder. Getting everything to line up where you really want it is an acquired skill. Sizing the lines, taking into account all of the length and fittings to supply gas as needed without starving the device requires knowledge. Can a handy DIY'er perform these tasks, maybe. Possibilities of error, somewhat high. Possiblities of catastrophic problems if not right, potentially very high. Run a gas line on a car incorrectly, and you might burn yourself up, but probably won't blow yourself up. Run a gas line and have a leak in a structure, you could blow the block down.

Depends on your skill level and the quality of the inspection.
 

Terry

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1. In your opinion, is running low pressure black steel residential natural gas piping more or less dangerous than the following:
A. Installing fuel and brake lines on a car.
B. Riding a chopped motorcycle one built oneself.

Less dangerous then B,
More dangerous then A

You can always use an emergency brake in the car.
The chopped cycle, why not. It's just a big bicycle.
I used to make bikes out of parts when I was 10. Nobody ever showed me how, and my parents never knew what I was riding.
My first bike didn't have brakes.

I think most plumbers are more concerned with
sizing of pipes
Leaks
proper venting and air provisions

Having done brakes long before plumbing,
Having built many motorcycle wheels and worked in a bicycle and motorcycle shop, most of that was just getting parts where they should be, and tight.

I think that gas piping, it's more about preparing your mind for what could happen.

When I was in Tacoma eating lunch one day, I heard a loud boom, and the restaurant shook.
There was a gas explosion a mile away.
Gas isn't hard, you just that you have to believe that there are rules that need following.
And you have to know the rules.

A leaking brake line shows up on the ground.

A leaking gas line disappears into the air.

A break line works pretty well when there is no leak, and the caliper seals are good.

A gas line can't leak, must be sized right, must have a way to dissipate leaking gas, must provide combustion air, and exhaust.
All of these things are considered separately and together.

The explosion that almost wiped out my in-laws
 
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NHmaster

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Thanks for the thoughts so far. It's hard to convince an one like me who has seen the gas installers testing a line by igniting the end of it that he can't install some threaded pipe and check it carefully. Furthermore, I've seen a gas meter fall off the wall before with no direct cause. (Improperly tightened connection). When the gas company came to fix it they wrapped a coathanger around a nail as support. I went back and put in strut.

I completely understand the warnings against risky jobs for the general public. Yet I have always wanted to know just how risky the tradesmen are trying to say something is. Every time you crawl under your car of course you COULD knock out the jack and it is riskier than having it on an overhead lift. But if I have jacks, blocks and double check everything then I'm not going to worry about it and most tradesmen I've worked with would probably call you a "wuss" to be too cautious to get under a car.

I guess what I'm saying is that I understand it poses some danger. If it is not objectively more dangerous than things which careful, double-checking, patient, mechanically inclined guys can do - I'm not going to worry about it.

There are hacks in every trade and every profession.
 

Cookie

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YIKES. How would you see this coming?

Driver loses all 4 wheels while driving

ZURICH (Reuters) – A car traveling on a motorway in Switzerland lost all four wheels simultaneously, coming to an immediate halt in the middle of the highway, police said on Saturday.
The car had just stopped and the passengers had changed from winter to summer wheels themselves, a common task in Switzerland where there is plenty of snow in winter, but used the wrong nuts when mounting the new set.
"When they then drove back on to the motorway, all of the wheels disconnected," St Gallen cantonal police said in a statement. "Luckily, no one was injured and no other vehicle was damaged."
 

Thatguy

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1. In your opinion, is running low pressure black steel residential natural gas piping more or less dangerous than the following:
A. Installing fuel and brake lines on a car.
B. Riding a chopped motorcycle one built oneself.
Here's how to find out. Ideally you should do this thought experiment with several people.

A flip of a coin determines if you will ride in the car with the brake job or ride the motocycle, let's say for one year each.
If you are totally indifferent to which way the coin lands then A and B are equally hazardous.

Then you do the same experiment with either A or B and the house.
If indifference comes with being assigned option A [e.g.] for one year or living in the house for 10 years then option A is 10x more dangerous than the house stuff.

When each subject has made his/her choice, it helps to repeat back to them what their choice is. Usually they change it, but I can't say that it's in a preferred direction.
 
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Terry

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A flip of a coin determines if you will ride in the car with the brake job or ride the motocycle, let's say for one year each.
If you are totally indifferent to which way the coin lands then A and B are equally hazardous.

My son told me about the coin flip way too.
Well, if I'm flipping coins, then I'm driving the car with "new" brakes sooner than I would be riding a chopped cycle.

And if I keep flipping the coin, I'm riding the chopper before I let you play with the gas in my home.
 

Engineer Ben

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Thanks for the candid thoughts. I'm going to procede with the same level of caution I would if were say, aligning the drive train of a motorcycle where a 1/100 of an inch may kill you suddenly and violently.

I will also have the final installation inspected later in the week by the gas company. It's a 110 year old house and the service should be checked anyway.

For the record, the gas utility classifies 3 different types of leaks and only one requires immediate action. Most of the disasters have to do with either equipment failure or some larger hidden systemic problem such as gas pooling in a buried, inaccessible or confined space.

I value the free thoughs here. The project is small and though my skills aren't those of a master plumber, they are certainly as good as a building engineer who could, say, install a new water heater or a small run of gas piping.

Interesting philosophical observations on risk management you all had. It's funny to think about where we are paying for specialty skills and where we are paying for peace of mind in life. I'm happy to pay for the former, but skeptical to pay for the latter. In general I've been very impressed by the quality of work I see on commercial construction, whereas residential is a real mix.

I think I'd really be paying for the pressure test, and I'm skeptical they would do a pressure test unless I replaced more piping than I plan on and look over their shoulder while they do it.
 

Terry

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New work typically has a pressure test, isolated from any supply and with the valves not assembled on the line yet.
Many valves won't take full pressure of the test.

Natural gas is less explosive then propane.
Propane also is heavier then air, so it can pool, and then explode.
That is what happened with the motor home explosion.

You can also create explosions using paint thinner in a garage, and ignite them with a spark while plugging in a compressor.
The last one I heard about blew the painter through the closed garage door.
 
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Engineer Ben

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Good point Terry!

This gets at what I'm saying. If they aren't going to do a pressure test off a capped line which has been extended a couple of feet and are just going to swab the joints then I don't think I'm actually getting any better risk management. I can pass the buck on the legal responsibility, but not the risk since I'll be sleeping there at the end of the day.

There's an old saying about guys like the painter you mentioned: "Confident, cocky, stupid, dead."

I'll take the "Conservative, cautious, careful, content" route.
 

NHmaster

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That you think natural gas is less dangerous than L.P. gas pretty much says it all.
 

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Engineer Ben

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Well, if you have to store, label, transport and distribute it at different pressures, that's one indication. If it has a different combustion heat, that's another. I suppose the critical pressure belt liquid/gas issue could come up.

I certainly have a different level of caution when transporting my O/A welding cylinders than I do when I pick up a new tank of propane. I have the former banded to unistrut into masonry, I have the latter set under my bbq held in place my gravity.

Anyway, I'll get the $40 gage and test when I'm done with that of the new appliance connection, too. Just for kicks I'll see how well the pressure holds now. May have undetectable to the nose leaks as-is. It seems to me like most old facilities probably do have pinhole leaks.

It seems to me that if it is so risky, I probably shouldn't have a gas stove to begin with. After all, I could leave the gas on, not notice it and burn down the neighborhood that way, too.

I realize that some things are objectively risky. Thinking in terms of comparisons has always helped me understand the magnitude. I think we humans are funny sometimes in how we assess risks. Again, it goes like this:

1. Unless I watch them do it, I have no guarantee they tested at all. On all my jobs which go out to bid, I rarely if ever get testing reports. I'll observe a few of the tests, but can't possibly watch them all. The code officials in these parts generally inspect one portion of a large project and base their call on that. (Say, one condo in a multi-unit).
2. If I watch them do it, then I'm paying for the test.
3. If the test is not something which is esoteric, then I could do the test.

As I understand it, it takes a good eye for an applied solution / air bubbles test. I've done similar tests to find tire leaks, gas tank leaks, etc. A $40 gas gage seems like a reasonable bet. Test it after the install, the next day and a while later, too.

But if I pay someone to do it, buy the gage and check myself...and find a leak...someone owes me a beer!

Yup, you should always send your axel to a pro to weld, too. But what can you say when 3 axels from the best welding shop around all break at lower than spec torques? Happened to me. That's how I started on the "if I can do it myself and test it rigorously, I will" mindset. If for some reason I couldn't thoroughly check it, then I totally agree with all the dissenting posters.

Cheers!
 

Engineer Ben

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One more thought: A good argument for getting the gage would be:

1. It takes a trained eye to get the bubble test right.
2. Your gas meter does not read very low gas flows, such as small leaks. So you cannot test for leaks with a meter read.
3. Small leaks which are not detected by the meter are big enough to cause an explosion but small enough to not be detected by scent, an alarm or handheld detector.

I think #1 is true, #2 is true, but number 3 is false.
 

Thatguy

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I take it you are risk-averse.
In my whole life I've heard of only maybe two gas explosions, but this could be researched on the Internet.
In the US, ~50 die each year from lightning, 100/day from vehicles, 1000/day from smoking.
 

Terry

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I knew one woman that

Put the end of a used Christmas tree into the burning fireplace.
The rest of the tree exploded into flames and burned the carpet in front of the fireplace.

Burned trash over a decorative gas log set blackening the ceramic logs.

Use candles in the living room when the power went out, burning one wall and some carpet.

Stored gasoline cans in front of the gas furnace.

The pressure test is best, it makes sure the pipe is good too.
A pressure test is easy, throw on the gauge and use a tire pump.
Let set overnight, the inspector comes, see the reading, signs the permit.
He is also able to check for proper pipe sizing.

Every year someone dies in a power outage by using gas to heat within an enclosed space.
Carbon Monoxide poisoning.

http://www.boston.com/news/local/ma.../21/before_explosion_gas_crew_waved_off_help/

http://www.cnn.com/2009/US/05/07/maryland.gas.blast/

http://newsblog.projo.com/2009/02/recent-gas-expl.html

I was having lunch near this exposion and felt the resturant shake.
http://www.break.com/index/tacoma-propane-tank-explosion.html
 
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Thatguy

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I knew one woman that

Put the end of a used Christmas tree into the burning fireplace.
The rest of the tree exploded into flames and burned the carpet in front of the fireplace.

Burned trash over a decorative gas log set blackening the ceramic logs.

Use candles in the living room when the power went out, burning one wall and some carpet.

Stored gasoline cans in front of the gas furnace.
Risk-seeking, out of boredom or ignorance. . .

"If offered either €50 or a 50% chance of €100, a risk averse person will take the €50, a risk seeking person will take the 50% chance of €100, and a risk neutral person would have no preference between the two options."

Or, :(
". . .pyromania is an impulse to deliberately start fires to relieve tension and typically includes feelings of gratification or relief afterward. Pyromania is distinct from arson, and pyromaniacs are also distinct from those who start fires because of psychosis, for personal, monetary or political gain, or for acts of revenge. Pyromaniacs start fires to induce euphoria, and often fixate on institutions of fire control like fire stations and firefighters."

This is for non-residential
http://www.osti.gov/bridge/servlets/purl/503450-P1hGXH/webviewable/503450.pdf
 
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NHmaster

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More people are killed each year by LP and nat gas explosion than welding cylinder explosions.

In my state you have to have a gas license (5 certifications in fact) to work on or install gas. You need to pass a test. You should be NATE or CEPA certified as well. That said, if you want to do you own gas piping and service than by all means go ahead. I'm pretty sure that an engineers degree encompasses a couple years of practical gas piping and service methods.

I thoroughly object to this entire thread on the grounds that your posts may very well entice other folks reading it to go on and give it a try, with tragic results. If you want to go it on your own, than go ahead, but the rest of the world does not need your input and you will get no pat on the back from those of us that are licensed.
 
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