Can you use modified thin set with Kerdi and Ditra?: Yes if you use Ardex

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JohnfrWhipple

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Roberto I don't think the expired thin-set have any place in your tests. I think you need to exclude them or at least re test them with fresh product. I doubt their is enough portland left in those bag to still work properly....
 

ShowerDude

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john,

i thought youd never used wedi? you hate ?

i love watching you go from product to product and mix it all together.

tough turn of events for you as of late.

like the 255 multimax issue i had its great you shared with us your ink issue with the laticrete hydroban membrane.

shows more of the challenges we face daily, and in a newyork minute that ink problem had you forced to try and source some kerdi DS which youve sworn
off.


wonder how many clear glass tile jobs had been set with white thinset and grouts over that ink problem. hopefully none in a submerged application

time will tell us what submerged means

thanks for sharing your love hate and ups and downs john..

always interested to see where you go next...
 

JohnfrWhipple

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Thanks RSCB.

I really did not want to share the info with the ink online. But - it's not my style to hold back anything. Like you and Roberto we live our lives in the moment. We share our installs as they happen. Not after photo shop. Editing. Staging. yatata yatta yatta....

Laticrete has the issue sorted I think. Now we just need to get this new material on the shelves. Until then I'll install it wrong way around.

I think the one thing I have learned from years of testing and researching is that no product ever has failed and had a paid for do over.... Not a single one. Yet so many showers fail. As installers we have to try and arm ourselves with the best products that offer up the fewest restrictions.

Laticrete has always been solid with me. From product samples. Extra epoxy cleaning packs. Pencils. and the like. All good. But the tech service is killer.

My local Laticrete supplier is a family run company. Not a box store. I like that - giving back and shopping local sort of. And they have a kick ass Italian expresso machine in the office. Sometimes left over cake from the weekend!

As an installer I pick what I use. I install it. I stand behind my builds.

Thinking a manufacture is going to save you is silly - just look at the rules for example Schluter requires for it's warranty. Great you get ten years - but really - you need the framers name and address for it? Come on. What about the Hydro Ban job on the other forum. A tear in the floor to wall change of plane. I think that installer took it in the ass to fix. Says on the box no mesh required....

If a utter disaster happens and I find out one day something happened on my job - I will pay to have the lab work done. I will do the repair and if it looks like my product "A" or "B" failed I will surely be asking the manufactures WTF. And I will do so right here in an open forum....

Expsoure is our friend online. If we installers share our success and failures "We" can control the data stream. If Roberto finds out that his Grani liquid is messed up - I can check here in Vancouver. Then some poor bastard in Toronto one day might say "Hey - that happened to me" and he might see a date code or something posted. When you have an issue the manufactures ask first for date codes and batch numbers....

WHY?

I think there is always the risk of human error and the batch codes are red flags for manufactures who need to do recalls. Have you ever seen a product recall from any manufacture in our business? Someone is mining the info - and it is the tech line you are calling.

RSCB gave use a heads up on 255. Roberto is giving us a 911 on Grani Rapid. I just out'd Hydro Ban Sheet Membrane and the ink issue. As a homeowner researching a shower build it has been a very knowledgeable two months here with the boys.

In the background who knows what the blow hard is preaching. I'm learning. That is good by me. I'm sure lots of us are. Has any installer on the other forum commented on the ink on the Hydro Ban Sheet Membrane? If not why? Do they not wash their installs? Do they not flat trowel the membranes to smooth out air bubbles? Or is this yet another first that no one is aware of? Kind of like the irredesenct particles in Ardex 8+9. Some things are just ignored by a manufacture - even when you show them in person.
 

Eurob

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Roberto I don't think the expired thin-set have any place in your tests. I think you need to exclude them or at least re test them with fresh product. I doubt their is enough portland left in those bag to still work properly....

I disagree , John . Those are chemical products , they don't expire so fast . What should I do with them , throw them out in the land fill ?

Where do you think the portland went ? It is like the -- mix the powder before it is used -- .... how do you think the ingredients contained in the bag -- not manipulated extensively -- will migrate and condense in a specific location ? The mixed powder is ready to use , unlike the liquid which need remixing .
 
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Eurob

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You know what bugs me most about this testing is the Grani Rapid and all the freaked weird circles under the glass. That and the cracking in the mortar.

I used Grani Rapid on my own exterior deck.

I have used it for years.

Says on the bag no efflorescence. Looking closer I wonder how true that is.

A setter I used to work with told me he used Grani Rapid out on a exterior deck on concrete. They did a poor job of hoarding the deck and the deck got wet on day 4 after curing.

Deck crapped out with efflorescent the the rep told them they have to keep all Grani installs dry for seven days.


I agree with you John about the picture formed under the glass .

The cracking in the mortar is not a concern , it is not present under the glass .

I don't think the efflorescence is coming from the GraniRapid . How old was the concrete ?



JW said:
at least re test them with fresh product


I started John . I wanted a fair in depth test . I've been using the GraniRapid for a long time and never had the problem . The 2 times I had the problem the liquid and powder was from USA .


Here are the prepped samples

New tests -- 4 batches GR TL.jpg
New tests -- 4 batches GR TL 1.jpg
New tests -- 4 batches GR TL 2.jpg
New tests -- 4 batches GR TL 3.jpg


I will post more -- make a new thread -- with a more detailed test procedures and results .
 

Eurob

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Can I make a request, Roberto. Determining cure by the appearance through the glass may be subjective.


I will do even more, Vegas .

I will submerge the fresh mortar -- GraniRapid --so you can see it is not affected by it -- the specialized mortars -- . I will monitor the cure with the regular samples and give it a chance of double times for the submerged mortar -- curing -- .

Then will decide how to test it further.

Bucket test -- 4 batches GR TL.jpg
Bucket test -- 4 batches GR TL 1.jpg
Bucket test -- 4 batches GR  TL 2.jpg
Bucket test -- 4 batches GR TL 3.jpg
 

Jadnashua

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While the OP probably won't see this...the manufacturers put a date code on their products, and pretty much ALL of them that use cement call for a max of one year from manufacturing, IF stored properly (and that's a tough one). All bets are off if the bag is damaged, or you've opened it...it will not last that full year once opened. The GraniRapid was bagged about 15-months ago...very suspect, and probably not indicative of fresh product. Since some of the modifiers chemically change rather than just dry out after mixing, that same moisture that can affect the cement will affect the modifiers as well. IOW, DO NOT USE OLD PRODUCT, or any that may have a hole in the bag or that show evidence of being wetted (staining). The plastic bags that Laticrete uses have one-way valves that will let air out, but not in (assuming everything is working properly). Those bagging machines cost about $1M each, and Laticrete had a 5-year exclusive from the manufacturer - they could not sell that machine to any other company during that period for use by cement/mortar producers (that company makes machines for other powdered products, and had to be extensively modified to work with cement, which is the reason they got the exclusive use). That 5-year exclusive period has expired, and other companies are starting to install the plastic baggers...they protect the product better, but nothing's perfect.

FWIW, I just finished a workshop at Laticrete last week, and their production process takes three samples of EVERY batch of materials they make and stores them (only for about 6-months, though). The samples are mixed up, and verified to meet the design specs in their testing lab. The three samples are taken at the beginning, the middle, and the end of the run. Their bagging machine is programmed to make an 8# bag at the appropriate time, and the weighing machine detects it as defective, and kicks it off the production line. They use those smaller bags as their sample for testing.

Every manufacturer does testing of their product to maintain quality control, but each one decides how often, so what Laticrete does, may or may not be representative of what other companies do...but, they ALL test their batches.
 

Eurob

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Alright , I am back with the 144 hours follow up findings .

1) GraniRapid -- 120h to 144h (6 days ) mark.


Glass samples -- after 120 hours GR.jpg
Glass samples -- after 144h hours GR.jpg


No visible change , so I will rule this one as cured under the glass .
 

Eurob

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2) Kerabond&Keralastic -- 120h to 144h (6 days ) mark.


Glass samples -- after 120 hours K&K.jpg
Glass samples -- after 144h hours K&K.jpg



10 - 15 % more cure progress observed under the glass . Still curing .
 

Eurob

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3) 254P -- 120h to 144h (6 days ) mark.


Glass samples -- after 120 hours 254P.jpg
Glass samples -- after 144h hours 254P.jpg



15 - 20 % more cure progress observed under the glass . Still curing .
 

Eurob

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4) 255M -- 120h to 144h (6 days ) mark.


Glass samples -- after 120 hours 255M.jpg
Glass samples -- after 144h hours 255M.jpg



Another 3/8'' shrinkage ring of the humid circle area very visible . Still curing .
 

Eurob

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5) Nanolight -- 120h to 144h (6 days ) mark.


Glass samples -- after 120 hours Nanolight.jpg
Glass samples -- after 144h hours Nanolight.jpg



No visible change , so I will rule this one as cured under the glass .
 

Eurob

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6) Ultralite -- 120h to 144h (6 days ) mark.


Glass samples -- after 120 hours Ultralite.jpg
Glass samples -- after 144h hours Ultralite.jpg



5 - 10 % very tiny humid dots present under the glass . Another 24 hours and it should be done curing.
 

Eurob

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7) X5 -- 120h to 144h (6 days ) mark.


Glass samples -- after 120 hours X5.jpg
Glass samples -- after 144h hours X5.jpg




10 - 15 % more cure progress observed under the glass . Still curing .
 

Eurob

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8) X77 -- 120h to 144h (6 days ) mark.


Glass samples -- after 120 hours X77.jpg
Glass samples -- after 144h hours X77.jpg



15 - 20 % more cure progress observed under the glass . Still curing .
 

ShowerDude

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the ardex usa msds sheet for x-5 x-77 shows a lot more detail in regards to components. laticretes msds very vague in comparison......
 
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