Can you use modified thin set with Kerdi and Ditra?: Yes if you use Ardex

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Eurob

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John , I based my ranking on the how well the mortar adheres to the glass . Then how well the notch adheres to the scratch coat without lifting it -- mortar's job to do it -- . I could tell you that the ones '' not adhering well to the glass '' are trickier -- a lifting motion while applying -- to do .

These are to a glass surface , not a porcelain tile or painted glass surface . I tried to have a full coverage area -- 100% -- without air pockets .

Next will be the list of the notches compressing -- easy to hard -- to obtain the 100% coverage . There are trowels designed for this type of installation , but we do use most of the time a regular vertical notch -- enough to make it work --.:)


I've heard of Kiessel products few years back , but didn't try them yet . It is hard to try and use all of them , but Ardex caught my attention for sure .
 

Eurob

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Notch on notch compression to obtain 100% coverage -- seen through the glass -- . I can tell you about the other factors of obtaining an easier coverage -- consistency of the mortar , 1/4 vs. 3/8 vs. 1/2 wide notch spacing , etc. -- I will not get into these , that's not been tested in here . I used one method wit one trowel -- 1/4 x 3/8 notch.

1) GraniRapid Mapei
2) X77 Ardex
3) Kerabond&Keralastic Mapei
4) 254 Platinum Laticrete
5) X5 Ardex
6) Nanlight Basf
7) Ultralite Mapei
8) 255 Multimax Laticrete

The difference consists in observing through the glass , with a short or long compression motion , how well the full coverage is obtained .

I will get to more later .
 
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Jadnashua

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The Europeans, especially on larger format porcelain tile, often use a slant notch trowel. http://www.raimondiusa.com/tst_sl_notch.html When you use that, you still get the mortar metering of a traditional notched trowel, but they fall over making almost a smooth bed rather than one with ridges. As I mentioned in one of the tutorials, on the really large porcelain panels, the recommendation is to use an orbital vibrating sander with a non-marring pad on it to embed those panels - similar to the idea of using a vibrator when pouring concrete. I think if you did that with the glass you'd find that if you worked from the middle out, you'd achieve 100% covereage IF there's enough mortar on the board. On those large panels, they notch the back of the tile the same as if it was on the floor, so essentially, you have two what would be considered fully notched layers. You need to notch the tile and the substrate in the same direction, or you'll create criss-crossed pockets where it's really hard to get the air out. Using glass or plexiglass where you can see what's happening is good practice to understand how you need to work with larger panels to get the coverage required to make them work.

While the cement in a modified cures at the same rate without the modifiers, the modifers provide support for the growing crystalline spikes. If it gets moved, they break, disrupting the final strength. Once you've broken off a crystalline spike of a growing cement particle, it does not reattach itself.
 

Eurob

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You have to really understand that what the industry is giving advice now , it is not part of this thread . Scope of it .

I did work with most of the tiles on the market , including the super thin porcelain sheets -- 3.5mm -- before the standards and recommendations were available . Like I said , add the standards to your thread if you like .

Everything is in a continuous moving -- vibration -- motion , the tests reflect part of it . The lab is dealing with tens or hundreds of retests procedures , WE GET ONLY ONE CHANCE PER PROJECT .

We do need to make sure the mortars are doing what they are suppose to do , not what a standard is saying they do . ISO standards are more differentiating than the ANSI , but the scope of the discussion is not it .

IF you have questions or opinions pertinent to it , please add them , otherwise do not interfere .
 

Eurob

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Alright , here are the samples after the 15 hours mark

Glass samples -- after 15 hours GR.jpg
Glass samples -- after 15 hours K&K.jpg
Glass samples -- after 15 hours 254 P.jpg
Glass samples -- after 15 hours 255M.jpg
 

Eurob

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More ......

Glass samples -- after 15 hours Nanolight.jpg
Glass samples -- after 15 hours Ultralite.jpg
Glass samples -- after 15 hours X5.jpg
Glass samples -- after 15 hours X 77.jpg



Here is the photo of the humidity and temperature , which was ( is ) stable from the moment of their installation .


Temperature and Humidity stable for 48h.jpg
 

Jadnashua

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Everything is in a continuous moving -- vibration -- motion , the tests reflect part of it . The lab is dealing with tens or hundreds of retests procedures , WE GET ONLY ONE CHANCE PER PROJECT .

We do need to make sure the mortars are doing what they are suppose to do , not what a standard is saying they do . ISO standards are more differentiating than the ANSI , but the scope of the discussion is not it .
The reason there are standards is so that when you DO use products, you have a good chance of them doing what the manufacturers say they will IF you use them as they say. If you don't test per a standard, you have no way of knowing how much leeway you have. Have a really marginal situation (huge temperature swings, a major roadway running outside your window with big trucks going by regularly or a railroad, you may need to specify a premium product that can stand up to it. Live in earthquake country, you may want to specify different products than when that isn't an issue. Lots of south facing windows, differences again. Certainly, every job is different. The standards tell you what you should do to make it work reliably. If you can't or won't follow them, the project is at risk.

Given your cooler temperatures and higher humidity levels than the standards means your results will take longer to achieve than when done at those standard temp/humidity levels. All of the products give you a range where they will work, and list timeframes for them, generally only at the standard testing set of conditions. Hotter, things cook off faster...colder, they cook slower. Too hot or too cold, and they may not work at all, even when it warms up. They could have been irreparably damaged in the process.
 

Eurob

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Before uploading photos of the samples after 24 hours , I will give you some of the findings for the mortars .

1) GraniRapid -- what a disappointment .

45% minor surface cure with soft deeper layer -- tacky -- around the exposed area around the perimeter of the glass . No signs of cure under the glass , assuming still soft -- just mixed -- by removing some from under the glass on the edge .

GR sample 4 -- 24h with soft mortar.jpg



2) Kerabond & Keralastic



65% surface cure around the exposed area around the perimeter of the glass . No signs of cure present under the glass .


Glass samples -- after 24 hours K&K.jpg



3) 254 Platinum



70 - 75% surface cure around the exposed area around the perimeter of the glass . No signs of cure present under the glass .

Glass samples -- after 24 hours 254P.jpg


4) 255 Multimax

60 - 70% surface cure around the exposed area around the perimeter of the glass . No signs of cure present under the glass .

It seems I didn't take the picture of it at the 24h mark , but you can take my word for it . My notes confirm it . Here is at 15h mark .

Glass samples -- after 15 hours 255M.jpg
 
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Eurob

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The reason there are standards is so that when you DO use products, you have a good chance of them doing what the manufacturers say they will IF you use them as they say. If you don't test per a standard, you have no way of knowing how much leeway you have. Have a really marginal situation (huge temperature swings, a major roadway running outside your window with big trucks going by regularly or a railroad, you may need to specify a premium product that can stand up to it. Live in earthquake country, you may want to specify different products than when that isn't an issue. Lots of south facing windows, differences again. Certainly, every job is different. The standards tell you what you should do to make it work reliably. If you can't or won't follow them, the project is at risk.

Given your cooler temperatures and higher humidity levels than the standards means your results will take longer to achieve than when done at those standard temp/humidity levels. All of the products give you a range where they will work, and list timeframes for them, generally only at the standard testing set of conditions. Hotter, things cook off faster...colder, they cook slower. Too hot or too cold, and they may not work at all, even when it warms up. They could have been irreparably damaged in the process.


I am not testing them to see if they are on the mark as the standard on the bag claims . I am testing them to see how they are performing and with my experience -- which is needed to decide when they are cured , ready for grouting -- , I can reflect in words what I am seeing .

Now that you told everyone the conditions we are facing in real life situation , I can assure you the mortars tested are not seeing more than 10 - 20 % of it . The temperature and the humidity play a big role , but it is not important for the scope of the test .

Let's find out , alright ?
 

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More....

5) Ultralite


60 - 70% surface cure around the exposed area around the perimeter of the glass . No signs of cure present under the glass .

Glass samples -- after 24 hours Ultralite.jpg



6) Nanolight

55 - 65% surface cure around the exposed area around the perimeter of the glass . No signs of cure present under the glass .


Glass samples -- after 24 hours Nanolight.jpg


7) X5

80-90% surface cure around the exposed area around the perimeter of the glass .

Signs of cure present under the glass of about 1'' around the perimeter of under the glass and some vague random pattern , again , under the glass .

Glass samples -- after 24 hours X5.jpg



8) X77


60-70% surface cure around the exposed area around the perimeter of the glass .

Signs of cure present under the glass of about 3/8 or less not easily visible around the perimeter of under the glass and no other signs of cure present under the glass .


Glass samples -- after 24 hours X77.jpg
 

Eurob

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So until now the Ardex mortars have a first place in curing in the absence of air .

I would say the others are just '' taking it slow '' .

The GraniRapid is the unexpected -- was suppose to be the first of them -- , but strange things happened before . This is the second time in over 2o years , so it is not so bad . Until you use it on a real project and then , you are stuck with it .

Let's see how the mortars are doing after 48 hours of curing process .
 

Jadnashua

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The actual cement cures in a pretty linear timeframe. But, in a modified, the modifiers are acting like the insulation on wire, helping to support and protect those curing cement crystals. But, since they are further apart when you throw the modifier in, and remain soft until they dry out, it's more like the cured material is suspended almost like the sand, and not actually holding onto things well. The modifiers do act somewhat like a glue, and that is creating some of the bond, but the whole assembly is soft, and the modifiers can be washed away if exposed to liquid water until they have dried or polymerized (depending on the type of modifier). There are some modifiers that can sufficiently harden without drying.
 

Eurob

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After 48 hours ........


1) GraniRapid

80% surface cure , but still soft -- denting is quite easy -- 60% to hard at 90% , randomly around the perimeter of the glass . Soft area near the glass at the bottom layer -- 40 - 50% without being tacky .
Random spotting is present under the glass -- unsure of the nature -- , possible cure effect ? Time will tell .
The small parts of mortar removed from the blob and the side of the glass are completely cured .

Glass samples -- after 48 hours GR.jpg



2) Kerabond & Keralastic

80-90% surface cured around the exposed area around the perimeter of the glass .

Signs of cure vaguely present at the edges of glass of about 1/4 or less around the perimeter .
No signs of cure present under the glass .

Glass samples -- after 48 hours mark K&K.jpg



3) 254 Platinum


85 - 95% surface cured around the exposed area around the perimeter of the glass .
No signs of cure present under the glass .


Glass samples -- after 48 hours 254P.jpg



4) 255 Multimax


85 - 95% surface cured around the exposed area around the perimeter of the glass .
Signs of cure present at the edges of glass of about 1.5'' around the perimeter .
The rest -- central area -- randomly signs of cure present under the glass .


Glass samples -- after 48 hours 255M.jpg
 

Eurob

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More .......

5) Ultralite


85 - 95% surface cured around the exposed area around the perimeter of the glass .
No signs of cure present under the glass .

Glass samples -- after 48 hours Ultralight.jpg



6) Nanolight

85 - 90% surface cured around the exposed area around the perimeter of the glass .
No signs of cure present under the glass .

Glass samples -- after 48 hours Nanolight.jpg



7) X5

90 - 95% surface cured around the exposed area around the perimeter of the glass .
Signs of cure randomly spread under the glass , 35 - 45 % of the area .
Efflorescence present on the surface of mortar .

Glass samples -- after 48 hours X5.jpg



8) X77


90 - 95% surface cured around the exposed area around the perimeter of the glass .
Signs of cure randomly spread under the glass , 20 - 30 % of the area .
No efflorescence present on the surface of mortar .

Glass samples -- after 48 hours X77.jpg
 
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Eurob

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
So until now , we have them as follow on curing time from best 1) to worst 8) .
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1) X5
2) X77
3) 255M
4)Nanolight
5)Ultralite
6)254P
7)Kerabond & Keralastic
8)GraniRapid

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The GraniRapid shouldn't be there at all , it should be first on the list . I would've said the list should like this
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


1)GraniRapid
2)X77
3)X5
4)Nanolight
5)Ultralite
6)255M
7)254P
8)Kerabond & Keralastic


More to follow .:)
 

Eurob

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Before I will continue with the follow up findings , I had to check with the codes on the bag and on the bucket of the GraniRapid , with the help of this link


How to read date code on Mapei setting materials


Which told me that both products were made in June 2013 .

Having the products , about 8L of liquid and full bag of powder , both from the same time frame , tells me now that it looses the fast setting capacity by 1,000% , meaning it took -- probably , still checking how it looks -- 10 times more time to cure .
 

Eurob

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I decided to put together the 60h and 72h mark of each mortar in a separated order . I think it will be easier to follow and compare in the same time .

1) GraniRapid

Glass samples -- after 60 hours GR.jpg
Glass samples -- after 72 hours GR.jpg



The surface and around the perimeter of the glass mortar is cured about 90-95% .

It seems that the mortar under the glass did cure at a certain % , but it is hard to say , due to pattern present . The pattern present has a minor lighter color change by about 5-10% , not much different from the 60h to the 72h mark .
 

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2) 255 Multimax


Glass samples -- after 60 hours 255M.jpg
Glass samples -- after 72 hours 255M.jpg




The surface and around the perimeter of the glass mortar is cured about 90-95% .

Signs of cure -- from sides to the center -- progress from 48h to 60 h of about 1/2 to 5/8 around the defined humid circle formed . There is minor change in the curing process in between the 60h to 72 h mark -- not easily visible -- .
 

Eurob

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3) Kerabond&Keralastic


Glass samples -- after 60 hours K&K.jpg
Glass samples -- after 72 hours K&K.jpg





The surface and around the perimeter of the glass mortar is cured about 90-95% .

Signs of cure of about 10% under the glass . There is minor change in the curing process in between the 60h to 72 h mark -- not easily visible -- .
 

Eurob

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4) 254 Platinum

Glass samples -- after 60 hours 254P.jpg
Glass samples -- after 72 hours 254P.jpg


The surface and around the perimeter of the glass mortar is cured about 90-95% .

Signs of cure of about 10 - 20% under the glass in a quite uniform pattern . There is minor change in the curing process in between the 60h to 72 h mark -- not easily visible -- .
 
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