Can you use modified thin set with Kerdi and Ditra?: Yes if you use Ardex

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JohnfrWhipple

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The old debate.

Can you use modified thin-set over top of Kerdi and Ditra. The answer might surprise you. The only way you can use modified thin-set is with products from Ardex. Ardex and Schluter work together as a team in Europe and now here.

So unlike Mapei and Schluter, Laticrete and Schluter or Custom and Schluter you now have the option of improving on Schluter's weak specication here in North America.

Ardex even prints these sheets to show case it

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JohnfrWhipple

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"Let's just say I'm uncomfortable with one product manufacturer warranting the performance of another manufacturer's product while deviating from the second manufacturer's written recommendations. While we've heard about such a warranty from Ardex for some time, I've not yet seen the written warranty terms published anywhere." - CX Source

OMG - CX is such a blow hard. All he needs to do is email Ardex and get the warranty...

I have the warranty on my hard drive. I got it after calling Ardex. How long will these men pretend it does not exist....... wait.... I know. Once Ardex bucks up for a sponsor spot I'm thinking..... LOL

 

Jadnashua

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If you ask Schluter, and this has been true for many years, IF you use a rapid setting modified mortar on their products, (i.e., one that sets properly in the presence of extra moisture) they will approve its use. That they don't advertise this has a good basis...their extensive testing for over 20-years says that stuff bonds to their membranes just fine without a modified. Should you disagree, you've always had the option of getting permission from them. FWIW, there are many more products that will work other than Ardex's. But, in the vast majority of situations, you don't really need them.

The second part of this is, and this supports CX's stand, is that if you use Ardex products with Schluter membranes, your warranty is from Ardex, not Schluter UNLESS you got prior approval for their use. So, if you don't want finger pointing, and want to go to one source, follow the proper procedure. Schluter does NOT publish for the NA market nor recommend the use of a modified thinset with their products (to set the tile - on something like Ditra, to bond it to say plywood, it is REQUIRED, but not on top to hold the tile). So, there is no Schluter published warranty for NA to set tile on their membranes with a modified...only permission on a case-by-case basis (at least that I have ever found).

When Schluter brought their membranes to market in Europe, they tried to get each individual country to approve their use (as it is used here)...but, the politics made that an impossible task. Since they wanted the same procedure for the full Eurozone, they relented and worked out a method that would work. When they brought their products to the USA, after review of the science and technology plus the test results, they got approval in all 50-states, and in Canada to install it as it was designed. They just had to convince one certification group for the entire country...politics and trade group pressure didn't play a part in it.

It works, it passes all industry reliability tests. Tile doesn't fall off of it if you put them on as directed.
 
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JohnfrWhipple

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You are like a thread building machine :D

Just give me a day off with no wife at home and watch out.... I did get in shit for not cleaning the driveway up. The old homestead is looking a little getto I'm told.... :)

Can you believe CX? What a douche bag. You watch Ardex will sign up next year as a sponsor and CX will come around. It's amazing how these men over there pick and choose what content to share.

What's up with them? The crowd seems to be separating and fighting between themselves. Too many sponsors I guess.

I find it sad how uneducated most of these men think the typically DIY is. It's shameful that they think a DIY can not build like a pro. The thing I see is most of the people I'm helping are turning out jobs better than the hacks online building 3 day bathrooms. These advice forums and the like littered with men wanting to promote their system (Surely I'm guilty of that) but over there it's pushed to the max. I read last week that someone could build, waterproof, tile and grout a shower in 2 days with Kerdi. Now this is not possible in real life. But it was written and not one person debated it. I guess that sells Ebooks.

Over hear Taylor and Terry let us fight it out. I get in trouble from the powers to be a couple times a year and need to tone back some. But for the most part we get to argue and debate. Like men do. Without the thread splitting. Without moving threads. With the HTML code changes. What you see on some forums is what they want you to see. When the good stuff comes up it is often deleted or moved from view. And by moved from view I mean retitled and not crawled by search engines. That's my view anyway. Been there done that.

My study has showed that the typical DIY spends 1-4 years online researching slowly. So more than one forum always gets hit. Terry's forum outranks the rest so sooner or later they come here. This debate over modified thin-set and it's use with Kerdi is such a basic issue.

If you use Kerdi ( I would not) use Ardex. Why use anything else? Makes no sense. If you prefer Laticrete's thin-set - use Laticrete's sheet membrane, it's better than Kerdi's anyway and out preforms it. If you want the king of the sheet membranes - use NobleSeal TS or CIS. After working with all three I still think it's number one.

I was in Centanni Tile roughly two months back. I bumped into the Ardex rep. He was buying a roll of Hydro Ban sheet membrane from Gloria. Why? I did not ask since I felt that I should shut my mouth. I did not know if Gloria knew who he was or why he was there. I do however think the Ardex rep was being a pro and testing the new membrane with his thin-sets. To think these companies don't test each other's products is silly. They all do.

They just don't talk about it online. Company A can't say that their membrane is better than Company B and name names. So they are all loosey goosey about it. Noble's top sales guy gave a sales seminar on linear shower drains. In it he bashed the ACO drain. But never said ACO drain. Rather popped up a picture of it instead. In the US there are rules about stuff like this. This is why it's best to have a forum or random tile guy call the shots. Then as a company you say nothing. Win win for the company.

Now if you call up company A and ask them over the phone why they are better than B - they will tell you. Just don't ask for it writing.... :)

As a homeowner you should be skeptical of my answers. And the other mens. You should call Ardex for yourself. get a ten year warranty from them. And then use a better thin-set and install the Kerdi like it was designed to be installed. With Ardex 8+9 (Kerdi Coll) helping out.
 

JohnfrWhipple

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Ardex SystemOne Schluter Warranty
10 years


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Clever verbage... lol​

"Backed by the Industry Best Ardex SystemOne Warranty"

I think being a lay person that only Ardex can have Ardex SystemOne Warranty..... LOL That's like me telling my eldest daughter she is my favourite eldest daughter. There is only one eldest daughter.

I would caution anyone reading this to avoid the AF207 product like the plague. Use thin-set not glue.....
 

Jadnashua

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If you use Ardex modified products with your Schluter Kerdi shower build without express Schluter permission, your warranty is shifted from Schluter to Ardex. If you are okay with that, fine.

Schluter does not warrant the use of modified thinsets on top of Kerdi in NA, so this is true - calling CX a douchebag is typical John Whipple. Schluter has over 20-years of field experience in NA (it's nearing 30-years), installing Kerdi as designed without tile bond or waterproofing failures when installed per their instructions for NA...unmodified works with their membrane and certification tests have repeatedly shown that as well as the hundreds of thousands of installs (if not more). Schluter will, on a case-by-case, give permission, based on use of a modified product that will perform while still wet (by no means will all mortars). CX sits on several national committees, seeing the responses and representatives of numerous experts in the country on tile, thinsets, etc.
 
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ShowerDude

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i like to use dowsing rods to locate the best thinset mixing location on each jobsite, i work this into my quotes accordingly , sometimes its in the field or back lot and requires a few extension cords and extra hose.

after a few chants and the ok from the spirit guide....

i lick my finger to the wind and two rubs on the flint...... always use "tumwater" btw.

perfect pookie every time.
 

ShowerDude

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native birch .....teepee kiln dried !!!!!

so many products , so much to cover, A constant re education the tile industry.... its kinda like a sockhop.
 

ShowerDude

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im lookin deeper into ardex tec and bostik for mortars


. and i hate to say it but the bigbox here carrys cbp prolite and its always fresh and rotated. $26 great all purpose medium bed to boot.
 

Eurob

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I think I am going to put it to the test . porcelain tile with ...... x5 , x77 .... ultralite, granirapid .......255 , 254 ........ on a drywall and cbu with the kerdi membrane.
 

Jadnashua

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Why not throw in some DitraSet as a comparison? It is, after all, what the manufacturer recommends, and it seems reasonable to see how it compares. When Schluter did their test to determine how long it took for the mortar to cure underneath, they used a translucent tile so the color change was obvious. But, how about a piece of clear window glass?
 

JohnfrWhipple

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Nice boys.

I have done similar testing Roberto. Kerdi's fleece fails at about 60PSI in my tests at home. Depends on how much thin-set you place under the tile sample.

The highest rating I ever got was with an Ardex 8+9 test with it as the adhesive, Kerdi DS as the W.P. and 8+9 as the thin-set.

Test over CBU hold up a little stronger. I think because the board is denser and compresses less under load.
 

ShowerDude

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I have only used 3N1 a few times but can say i liked it.....and it did trowel and key in well. check out the claim on their PDS. from Tec 3N1...as far as I know the only company to offer "Less user fatigue" in regards to tiling.!!!!!!! microspheres???? do spheres create a mechanical bond?? LOL.

what to believe these days. notice the ansi 118.15




Key Features and Benefits

Easiest troweling mortar—smooth, non-porous, ceramic microspheres roll over
each other creating a ball bearing effect that improves workability and reduces
tile setter fatigue
• Superior bonds for porcelain tile applications
• Exceeds ANSI A118.4, A118.11 and A118.15 specifications
• Non-slump for heavy tile and stone floor applications

Non-slip for large tile and stone weighing up to 6 pounds per square foot used
in wall applications
• Extended open time for maximum adjustability
• Mortar resists mold and mildew growth

Light Weight—30 pound bag provides same coverage as 50 pounds of
traditional latex modified mortar.
 

Eurob

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Just shows how resourceful the marketing department IS .

I would like to see the ISO 13007 standards on it . They tell a more accurate picture .

Why use exceeds 118.4 and 118.11 in the same sentence ? .11 is above .4 but who knows .
 

JohnfrWhipple

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.....Easiest troweling mortar—smooth, non-porous, ceramic microspheres roll over
each other creating a ball bearing effect that improves workability and reduces
tile setter fatigue......

Of thank God! I often find my panties get soaked when I trowel regular thin-set too long. I wonder if it comes out from under your finger nails easier??? My manicures just get destroyed weekly! lol

You see these types of sales angles are to cater to the aging trades pool. Tile men are old. Fat. Lazy. At least the majority are - as per national studies..... Leave your skirts a home men. Tile Setter Fatigue... AYFKM
 

ShowerDude

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John,

You are going to need to test this claim of ball bearing thinset and report back.

We are going to need to know what percentage of tennis elbow one can expect to avoid after 1 year exclusive troweling with only tec 3N1 LOL.....

claims worth only the pencil lead they were conjured with do indeed boost sales..
 

Jadnashua

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You guys just still don't get it! With ANYONE's fleece membrane, the bond shear strength between the sheet and the substrate or tile is NLT 50psi to pass industry standards. Done in a controlled, repeatable, scientific test, Kerdi typically tests out at about 70psi, or a 40% margin above the standard. Any bond to the tile or wall that is greater than that will hold the tile in place since if you did get shearing, the membrane will give up first. So, what's the big advantage of super high bond strength when the weakest link only has to meet 50psi? It will give some before it breaks, providing some flexibility in the assembly as well.

Bonding to a solid surface, like cbu or cement, or even a flexible one like plywood, you have a totally different story, and bond strength and flexibility become a concern. IOW, when using a membrane, you are limited to the membrane's structural characteristics, and if you can beat those with your 'glue', you should be golden.
 

Eurob

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I've gathered few mortars for the tests ......... hopefully we will get an idea of how they cure


Mortars tests 001.jpg
 
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