Can you set a water softener to deliver a specific water hardness?

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MrStop

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I have never owned or operated a water softener. I need to replace a water heater and one make I am looking at specifies a water hardness range between 5-7 grains per gallon. Based on my city water report, I have a hardness of roughly 11 grains per gallon. The manufacturer specifically states:

If the hardness of the water exceeds the maximum level of 7 grains per gallon, water should be softened to a hardness level no lower than 5 grains per gallon. Water softened as low as 0 to 1 grain per gallon may be under-saturated with respect to calcium carbonate, resulting in water that is aggressive and corrosive.
Questions:
  1. Is it possible adjust water softeners to hit a range between 5-7 grains per gallon? Or, is it an all-or-nothing system?
  2. Regardless of my choice in water heaters, is it worth installing a water softener with my level of water hardness (Total=11.1 gpg; Magnesium=1.6 gpg Calcium=1.7 gpg)
 

Reach4

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It is worthwhile, even if you get a water heater that does not have a minimum softness. I would recommend that you do not get that water heater. Good for you in reading that before buying. Care to name that softener?

You could mix 50% unsoftened water with 50% softened. I am not sure how you could ensure an even mix. But it would be a lot of work to get what is still moderately hard water.

With regard to your subject, No, not with a normal water softener. There could be an expensive alternative with some kind of feedback sensor. And "possible" is such a strong word.
 

MrStop

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Thanks for your quick input (and yes I am a geek about these things). I suspected that it was more like an all/nothing approach. The water heater I was looking at is a HTP Phoenix Light Duty. It looks like an impressive piece of equipment, but I guess I'll have to contact them to see if they have some magic solution.
 

Reach4

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From the first page of that link "316L stainless steel tank construction is corrosion resistant, eliminating the need for anode rods and protecting the tank against harsh water conditions for a lifetime of durability against leaks ". WOW. Irony. Under 5 GPG of hardess is harsh water conditions? Really robust unit there.:rolleyes:
 

_John_

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I've seen some manuals on some models (with built in bypasses) claim that you can adjust the hardness by playing with the inlet setting on the softener bypass. This would mean setting the inlet somewhere between all the way on service and bypassed while leaving the outlet side in the service position.

It would probably take a lot of tinkering to get exactly in the range you are looking for.
 

Mikey

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From the first page of that link "316L stainless steel tank construction is corrosion resistant, eliminating the need for anode rods and protecting the tank against harsh water conditions for a lifetime of durability against leaks ". WOW. Irony. Under 5 GPG of hardess is harsh water conditions? Really robust unit there.:rolleyes:
Really odd. Ask it to heat distilled or DI water and it'll fall apart before your very eyes...
 

Reach4

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I have seen claims that softened water is more corrosive than hard water. I feel confident that that is true to some extent. I have not seen any other softener specs that won't permit softened water.

I was planning to do a simple test comparing hard and soft with some nails and maybe something else in jars. I may get motivated enough to try it.
 

MrStop

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I have seen claims that softened water is more corrosive than hard water. I feel confident that that is true to some extent. I have not seen any other softener specs that won't permit softened water.

I was planning to do a simple test comparing hard and soft with some nails and maybe something else in jars. I may get motivated enough to try it.

It does appear that there is some merit to this:

http://water.me.vccs.edu/courses/ENV110/Lesson8_print.htm
http://water.me.vccs.edu/concepts/corrosioncauses.html

Corrosive Water
  • low pH
  • soft or with primarily noncarbonate hardness
  • low alkalinity
Scale-forming Water
  • high pH
  • hard with primarily carbonate hardness
  • high alkalinity
 
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ditttohead

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This is common practice for manufacturers to put in virtually unattainable parameters in order to negate any potential warranty claims in the future. The range of no less than 5, no more than 7... LOL!
Some softeners do have hardness controllers, they are required in many European countries. They do not work.
As an old boiler tech, we simply bypass the softener for a week once a year to intentionally build up a very thin layer of hardness scale in order to protect the metal tubes.

FYI, I have been running 0 GPG soft water through my stainless tubes for many years, no problem but... there is a lot to water chemistry that cant be condensed down to (5-7 grains hardness...).

Corrosivity of water... really hard water builds up a thick "protective" layer of scale on the stainless heat exchanger... lol, of course it is "less corrosive" but it will kill the effectiveness and efficiency of the water heater. If you are really worried about it, I would soften the water and add a polyphosphate feeder filter to the system.
 

Akwamag

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Pure water (DI or DeIonized, distilled) is under-saturated and can be corrosive because it needs to have some salt/electrolyte, and what is better than eating up hot metal tank to form iron/copper salt. However, salt-softened water (zero gpg) carries plenty of electrolyte - the sodium carbonates which your softener exchanges with calcium and magnesium - so you don't have to worry about corrosion. Salt- softened water should be sufficient. Adding polyphosphate is not necessary. You can also use other type of softeners which do not remove the calcium/magnesium carbonate - no ambiguity about 0, 5, 7 gpg.

I guess your manual is written to include softening water by reverse osmosis (RO), which is essentially DI water. And yes, in that case, the water is highly aggressive and corrosive.

Akwamag Team
 

ditttohead

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Softeners that don't remove calcium/magnesium... sigh... let me guess... LOL.

FYI, we are a huge manufacturer of "salt free" systems including magnetic conditioning. If you want my opinion of my design, feel free to ask by PM.

As for Polyphosphate feeders, they are extremely cheap, low maintenance, and only offer a little peace of mind. A simple slow dissolving polyphosphate filled filter is adequate, I am not recommending a real, commercial/industrial style system used for steam boilers, just a cartridge based unit... and I am not really recommending it, just offering an idea, I know some people read the manual and get all worried about specs that are not reasonable.
 

Akwamag

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I agree that the polyphosphate feeder is inexpensive and effective. However, I hope to avoid adding chemical if it is not absolutely necessary. I was hoping to see MrStop evaluate all softeners that don't use salt.

And yes, my company develops an advanced magnetic softener; and yes, I will call you tomorrow...LOL.

Akwamag Team
 

MrStop

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What other water quality info do I need to design a water softening & filtration system for my house? Below are some of the specs I pulled from my city's water quality report. Are the other items what I need to know, anything else? I can contact the water department to help fill in the blanks.
  • hardness: 11.1 grains per gallon
    • Magnesium (Mg): 1.6 GPG
    • Calcium (Ca): 1.7 GPG
  • Chlorine: between 0.54 & 1.20 ppm
  • Manganese (Mn): ??
  • Iron (Fe): ??
  • Sodium: ??
  • Sulfur: ??
  • Total Disolved Solids (TDS): ??
  • Ph: ??
 
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ditttohead

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Municipal supplies are fairly easy to treat since they are required to maintain certain water quality specifications. Chlorine vs Chloramine is important. 4 ppm chlorine is unlikely, that is the maximum you are allowed to have, it is usually far lower than that when it arrives at your house.

A simple softener and carbon tank are adequate and effective to provide you with a excellent water quality for most municipal supplies.
 

MrStop

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Sorry, I read from the wrong column. Chlorine is between 0.54 & 1.20 ppm. I didn't see any reference to Chloramine.

From the sizing chart here: http://www.qualitywaterassociates.com/softeners/sizingchart.htm, it says I need to find the capacity you need using compensated hardness.
Formula for determining compensated hardness: Hardness in gpg + ((iron ppm or mg/l * 4) + (manganese ppm or mg/l *2)) = compensated hardness round to next higher gpg​

So I really only need to know the Fe and Mn numbers, correct?

What is the carbon tank for?
 

ditttohead

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Iron and manganese are not an issue in most municipal supplies. They are chlorinated which converts any iron from the ferrous state to a ferric (rust) solid which is easily filterd out through physical means. Salt softeners do not remove chlorine, and units with carbon inside do not do a good job since the medias tend to blend. Internal dividers are a pain and not worth the effort. A second tank with Carbon is used to reduce chlorine, organic chemicals etc.

Your hardness is low, I would base the system size on your house size, capacity is not as critical. How many bathrooms?
 

MrStop

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I have 2 1/2 baths which utilize low flow shower heads. Additionally, I have a HE washing machine and newer more efficient dishwasher. Based on my water use records, I use about 0.25 CCF (187 gallons if my calcs are correct) of water per day. Usage is based on winter months when I'm not doing much outdoor watering. Water pressure, if it matters is about 85 PSI.
 
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Reach4

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You want to not run the water for the hose spigots that you use for watering through the softener.
 

ditttohead

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UPC states water pressure should not exceed 80 PSI, a regulator should be installed if your municipal;ity uses pumps instead of gravity and you have the potential to exceed 80 PSI. We install pressure gauges all over Southern California with high pressure indicators and we commonly see 80-90 during the day and 200+ at night.
Softeners should not feed irrigation, pools etc. Just the house.
For a 2.5 Bath house, I would recommend 2 or 2.5 CF softener for flow rate more than capacity.
 

MrStop

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I believe our system is gravity fed, not pumped. There could be some small error in my gauge. If I do install a regulator, what is the recommended pressure setting for a home?

I just measured the flow rate in my house. The water enters the house basement with a 3/4" copper pipe, then through a 5/8" meter. After the meter & 3/4" shut-off it is reduced down to 1/2" copper. My flow is approximately:
  • ~13.3 GPM @ ~85 psi measured at the outside faucet (approximately 10' from meter)
  • 8.6 GPM from 2nd floor bathtub faucet
I will be upgrading the line to 3/4" from the meter to the water softener/heater. Besides bypassing the softener for outdoor spigots and irrigation, what else should I bypass for? Should I bypass for drinking water (note: our water has been ranked top in the state for taste)? What about for aquariums?
 
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