Can I use a flushometer bowl with a high tank?

Discussion in 'Toilet Forum discussions' started by CanOfWorms, Apr 12, 2013.

  1. CanOfWorms

    CanOfWorms Member

    Messages:
    174
    Location:
    New Jersey
    if yes... then how high?
    If I go higher than that i will need to raise the pipe and I have another line Tee'd off of it.

    If I go up 48" will I be able to get a chrome/brass compression feeder line.
    I am not going to mess with that 110 year old iron thats working.
    I need to up my game on the fittings because they will be visible.

    Here is my old tank.
    tank.jpg
    I see this nice Madera on greggslist and I am thinking high tank, pull chain.
    madera.jpg

    Description:

    Right Height elongated bowl
    Fully glazed 2-1/8" trapway
    Elongated syphon jetted bowl
    10" (254mm) rough-in
    16-1/2" bowl rim height
    28.25" D x 14" W x 16.5" h

    Flushometer Required

    Or maybe I should just get a nice new clean tank like this one:
    tank2.jpg


    Just so you know. This was there. I really liked the look, but people's asses must have been tiny when this was made.
    old toilet.jpg
    Last edited: Apr 12, 2013
  2. jadnashua

    jadnashua Retired Defense Industry Engineer xxx

    Messages:
    21,809
    Location:
    New England
    Flushometers work at street water pressure. To achieve decent pressure, you'd need your tank on a tower! I do not think it would work. While you might get lots of volume, it probably wouldn't meet the pressure required to start a siphon before the bowl overflowed.
  3. CanOfWorms

    CanOfWorms Member

    Messages:
    174
    Location:
    New Jersey
    I was thinking that if I had a tank with a 3"-4" flapped and a same size pipe down t a reduced right at bowl connect. The velocity of the water dropping would create pressure when it reduced to 1 7/8 to enter bowl.
    Tech guys at AM might have some ideas.
  4. jadnashua

    jadnashua Retired Defense Industry Engineer xxx

    Messages:
    21,809
    Location:
    New England
    The pressure will never be more than the height differential of the tank/bowl allows, regardless of the volume...gravity is pretty constant on this planet...
  5. CanOfWorms

    CanOfWorms Member

    Messages:
    174
    Location:
    New Jersey
    it's not a matter of gravity being different . it's all about momentum . if you have a three inch nd column of water essentially dropping 28 inchesand then having to go through a the whole 40 percent smaller you are going to get a pressure increase . I have no idea if it would be enough do you know how much pressure it takes to flush one of these ?
    I suppose someone good roughly calculate the amount of pressure approximately but I'd really have to put on my thinking cap and I don't feel like it .
    please excuse the spelling and punctuation on this I'm using voice recognition on my cell phone and I can't seem to edit the dang text
    Last edited: Apr 12, 2013
  6. Terry

    Terry Administrator Staff Member

    Messages:
    14,770
    Location:
    Bothell, Washington
    At one time in Seattle, the plumbing near the water was having a hard time when the tide was high.
    They installed tanks high on the wall which made the toilets flush with more force.

    I've used a few like that, a tank mounted high on the wall. It really gets the water going dropping it from that height.

    What have you got to lose? It sounds like a fun project. The bowl in your picture is a 1.6
    I'm guessing it's going to work.
  7. CanOfWorms

    CanOfWorms Member

    Messages:
    174
    Location:
    New Jersey
    Thanks.
    If it does not work can I do flushometer ?
    I don't mind it in residential as it is the kind of thing you occasionally find in houses this old.
  8. jadnashua

    jadnashua Retired Defense Industry Engineer xxx

    Messages:
    21,809
    Location:
    New England
    All of the flushometer valves I've seen require about a 1" supply line. They work by opening fast, dumping supply system pressure water out, then stopping. The idea is get a fast burst of water under pressure to get enough inertia to siphon the bowl dry. A tank even a couple of feet up is going to generate maybe a pound or two of water pressure...way lower than that from the supply line. Low flow bowls don't have enough volume like the old ones that relied on lots of water to start the siphon...these require a certain amount of high speed burst of water. Certainly won't hurt to try, but with a gravity fed system, on a bowl designed for a flushometer, your odds aren't really good.
  9. Terry

    Terry Administrator Staff Member

    Messages:
    14,770
    Location:
    Bothell, Washington
    If you do a flushometer valve in a home, you will need to install an expansion tank near the toilet, and pipe it with 1"

    Or you can change out your main line from the meter and upsize your piping.
    Normally on commercial buildings, I'm running a 1.5" meter and 2" water main.

    A tank type toilet can have a 3/8" supply and take several minutes to refill.
    You're takling about a valve that flushes in seconds. Big difference.

    In high rise buildings, they have a large main line going up the floors. In a large building it may be larger than 2"
  10. CanOfWorms

    CanOfWorms Member

    Messages:
    174
    Location:
    New Jersey
    Well I really would rather do a high tank than flush o meter.
    Someone said something about tanks with 2" - 3" flappers?

    Which tanks or toilets have such a large hole?

    If the flushometer bowl is a 1.6 gallon flush can I use a smaller tank? The old style toilets all had small high tanks.

    I can start there.
    I ran this by an engineer/sailor buddy of mine said i should make sure that the reduction from the larger pipe to the smaller bowl inlet should be smooth like > instead of a 90 degree like } or ] to direct the flow through the smaller opening rather than create turbulence
    .
    Pics and follow up will be posted.
  11. jadnashua

    jadnashua Retired Defense Industry Engineer xxx

    Messages:
    21,809
    Location:
    New England
    Water falling a couple of feet just does NOT have the same force as a quick opening valve with a 1" (or larger) supply line under pressure. The bowls are designed differently...if it says it requires a Flushometer...I think you'll have problems. The actual water pressure increase for a gravity fed system is approximately 0.43197 psi/ft. Typical line water pressure is 40-60#. The bowl needs the velocity from the pressurized supply line to work. SO, take the tank, mounted a couple of feet above the bowl, then throw in maybe a foot of water on top of that and you'd have less than 1.5#, not the 40-60# it is designed for.
  12. CanOfWorms

    CanOfWorms Member

    Messages:
    174
    Location:
    New Jersey
    I'll give it a try with some junk parts and pvc before i go and buy all nice stuff.
    I'll try it with my existing tank and a roadside pickup.
    I'm not sqweemish
  13. benlinus

    benlinus New Member

    Messages:
    8
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    Well recently Using a Flushometer Bowl with a Low Tank Toilet, it works great, really have no idea, how to use a flashometer bowl with a high tank toilet, he flushometer is a plumbing device you have no doubt seen, and probably used. As opposed to most residential toilets, which rely on a water tank and gravity to flush the contents of a toilet bowl, toilets employing a flushometer are tankless, and rely on the water pressure from the water source itself. Toilets with flushometers are most commonly seen in public restrooms and places of business.
  14. hj

    hj Moderator & Master Plumber Staff Member

    Messages:
    26,257
    Location:
    Cave Creek, Arizona
    Your first problem will be that the bowl will have a 1 1/2" o.d. inlet and the tank will have a 2" o.d. outlet, but there are few, if any, reducers for tubular sizes to make the reduction. Then you have to figure out how to do the offset since the bowl's inlet will probably NOT line up the tank's outlet. Which is why the old "tank type" toilets had a rear inlet.
  15. CanOfWorms

    CanOfWorms Member

    Messages:
    174
    Location:
    New Jersey
    I want the larger od of the tank to build pressure from the drop and then the reduction as it enters the bowl.
    . I may have to put a little bend in the pipe to get it to line up, maybe not. If I do put a bend in it it will look good.
    But looking at the cost of 2" copper pipe I will probably test it out with PVC and it will probably stay pvc if it works.
    Maybe paint it silver. It will look cheasy to me and also to a plumber, but it the wacky bathroom it will look cute.
  16. CanOfWorms

    CanOfWorms Member

    Messages:
    174
    Location:
    New Jersey
    Just to update this one. I never went farther than research. it was too costly and would take too much time to experiment.
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