Calcium buildup in water heater

Users who are viewing this thread

Elliott

New Member
Messages
24
Reaction score
0
Points
0
I've had 2 different water specialists out to test the water in the field. They both used a test kit which had a little packet that was emptied into a test tube. The first one was the guy who installed the iron filter right after he installed the pump about 6 months ago. He measured 8ppm iron.

The second guy from a different company came out last week and found about 1ppm iron. That was before the iron filter. He recommended not bypassing the current iron filter or I would see staining. We compared samples of the water pre and post filter. The pre-filter sample had a yellowish tint to it. The post-filter sample had a bluish tint. So it seems like I'm getting some kind of benefit from the iron filter.

I've also had 2 iron tests from certified water labs who found no iron present. I'm inclined to believe the certified labs over the field test from people who want to sell me equipment. However, the area I'm in is well known for having iron and manganese in the water.

Gary Slusser recommended getting purchasing an iron test kit and monitoring the water to determine if the iron content is variable. I can't find anything locally so I'm going to order on online today.

When I showed the the second guy both lab tests he said the field tests were more accurate because they were done with fresh water. Is there any truth to this?

He recommended a water softener and provided the following quote with very little detail.

Performa Softener System $1,595
Post filter (20" 1 micron) $100
Delivery, labor, install, setup, media, flushing $300
Total $1,995 +tax
 

Sammyhydro11

In the Trades
Messages
708
Reaction score
1
Points
16
Location
Massachusetts
Forget the test kits. Go with the raw water analysis from the certified lab. My recomendation is based on the results that you posted form the certified lab. The results from that analysis indicates hard water. If someone is telling you that a field test is more acurate than a lab test, he doesn't know what he is talking about. Most companies that do the field tests will offer a free water analysis cutting out the guy that wants to do it right because the right way is more costly. Why you would pre filter a water softener unless the water is turbid is a joke.

sammy

www.tylerwellandpump.com
 

Gary Slusser

That's all folks!
Messages
6,921
Reaction score
22
Points
38
Location
Wherever I park the motorhome.
Website
www.qualitywaterassociates.com
Elliott, that type test the water treatment guys used is used by most labs and water companies and probably is made by Hach Co Loveland CO and used all over the world and have been for decades. They are very accurate. I've used them for 18 years and used the results for the VA and FHA. And all on site tests are more accurate than any done hours to days later by a Certified Lab.

As you see, two guys say there is iron and the lab results say none. There is no way to fake the tests to show iron when it isn't present in the sample; it was your water that they tested right? Do you know for sure the lab tested your sample, or didn't confuse someone's results (0 ppm) for yours? I say no because you weren't there to witness what or how they did it. Recall when hospitals couldn't keep track of what baby belonged to which mom? Well, labs aren't any better in keeping sample records or data entry straight. Pharmacies don't have a good accuracy record in filling prescriptions either.

The Performa is an Autotrol control valve. They are not as good as a Clack WS-1 or Fleck.
 

Elliott

New Member
Messages
24
Reaction score
0
Points
0
I was present when the field tests were done, both guys were using Hach color wheel kits. Of course I have no idea how the lab tests were handled. But they were sent to 2 different labs with the same results. I talked to one of the chemists and asked him why the field tests were positive for iron and the lab wasn't. He said the field tests are easily fooled. Would it make any difference if the samples were taken after the aerator and retention tank?

Since testing the water will be an onging thing where can I purchase one of these Hach kits? Are they very expensive?

I'm about ready to pull the trigger on a softener but first would like to figure out 3 things:

How hard is my water without running it through the filter containing calcite? I put the filter on bypass last week.

How much if any iron is in the water?

How difficult is it to install, setup, and maintain a softener. Can I do it myself?

It's hard to know what to do when everyone is telling me something different. Who should I trust?
 
Last edited:

Speedbump

Active Member
Messages
4,511
Reaction score
12
Points
38
Location
Riverview, Fl.
Just got a tester, pH -s 7.6
9/25/08 Sample taken from house hot water fixture after the iron filter was installed. These tests were recommended by the chemist at a local water lab after I explained my problem.
Total hardness 66 mg/l
pH 8.1

I see the neutralizing filter did raise the PH to over 8.

bob...
 

Southern Man

DIY Hillbilly
Messages
525
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Location
North Carolina
I had a 30 gallon electric on a hard water well that literally filled up with calcium deposits. I don't know how the self cleaner works but it seems to me that you might just crank the drain valve weekly to keep the deposits flushed out.
 

Elliott

New Member
Messages
24
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Unfortunately the crap sticks to the sides of the tank and most of it won't come out when flushed.
 

Elliott

New Member
Messages
24
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Does this look like iron?

toilet%20tank.jpg
 

Gary Slusser

That's all folks!
Messages
6,921
Reaction score
22
Points
38
Location
Wherever I park the motorhome.
Website
www.qualitywaterassociates.com
The lab samples for iron had to be taken before the aeration/calcite filter. If not redo the tests because the aeration/filter will be the removing iron, manganese and H2S.

Aeration raises the pH. That is probably why the pH is as high as it is, whatever the air is responsible for is added to the calcite increase because it raises pH by being dissolved into the water by any acid or anything else in the water that makes it aggressive; like dissolved oxygen (from the aeration) or CO2.

Yes the residue in the bottom of the toilet tank is ferric iron (rust). It may be from iron getting through the filter and being oxidized after the water is aerated and depressurized in the toilet tank or, ferric iron getting through a filter or, coming from a build up of rust in the plumbing. That is not the way to gauge how well your equipment is working. You can only do that with a water test on treated water taken from right after the equipment.

The only part of your equipment that can increase your hardness is the calcite.

I say trust the one that you think is the most knowledgeable.
 

Elliott

New Member
Messages
24
Reaction score
0
Points
0
The lab samples for iron had to be taken before the aeration/calcite filter. If not redo the tests because the aeration/filter will be the removing iron, manganese and H2S.
Gary,

The aerator is installed before the pressure tank so I'll have to wait until the iron filter is removed to get more samples.

I spoke to the chemist at the water lab yesterday. They did a microscopic exam of the particles I collected from hot side of the house plumbing. He said there was some calcium but most of it was silica. The silica level was 14mg/l is that enough to cause problems like this?
 

Southern Man

DIY Hillbilly
Messages
525
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Location
North Carolina
Unfortunately the crap sticks to the sides of the tank and most of it won't come out when flushed.
I ended up replacing my 40 gallon electric with a Bock direct oil fired unit. It was glass lined and had a decent sized hand-hole to clean it out. In four years it never accumulated much, and I assume because of the lining. That little guy was only 22 gallons but could make hot water faster than we could use it. Although it was five times the cost of an electric it paid for itself in less than two years, due to the high cost of electricity in Upstate NY. I did the install myself, and had the oil tank and chimney right there.

I priced the same unit for here (low electric rates, no fuel oil tank and no vent nearby) and it won't pay for itself any time soon. :(
 

Gary Slusser

That's all folks!
Messages
6,921
Reaction score
22
Points
38
Location
Wherever I park the motorhome.
Website
www.qualitywaterassociates.com
Gary,

The aerator is installed before the pressure tank so I'll have to wait until the iron filter is removed to get more samples.

I spoke to the chemist at the water lab yesterday. They did a microscopic exam of the particles I collected from hot side of the house plumbing. He said there was some calcium but most of it was silica. The silica level was 14mg/l is that enough to cause problems like this?
I think I told you before but I'll repeat in case I didn't, the filter has to be on the house side of the pressure tank. Otherwise, when the pump is not running and the filter is in backwash, the water flow from the pressure tank to the filter goes into the OUTlet of the filter and that won't work well or for long. And it will mess up your water quality. Then when the pump comes on, the water to the filter goes in the filter's INlet as it always should.

If you want a sample just after the aerator/filter, use the boiler drain valve on the pressure tank or, shut off the pump and undo the outlet plumbing connection of the filter and collect a sample from there.

If you want a raw water sample, get one by shutting off the pump and the main water shut off valve past the pressure tank and then take the solution feeder injector out of its fitting in the plumbing and drain water out of the pipe until it quits flowing and then turn the pump on and get your sample.

Hydroblend is another polyphosphate sequestering agent. Any of us water treatment dealers can sell you the generic version of most brands. In the same type housings.

I don't know much about silica but you should have a test for it on a raw water sample. It is a serious problem in boilers, but I've never heard of it causing a problem in domestic water heaters; including tank less heaters where I would think it would be more than in a tank type.
 

Elliott

New Member
Messages
24
Reaction score
0
Points
0
I think I told you before but I'll repeat in case I didn't, the filter has to be on the house side of the pressure tank. Otherwise, when the pump is not running and the filter is in backwash, the water flow from the pressure tank to the filter goes into the OUTlet of the filter and that won't work well or for long. And it will mess up your water quality. Then when the pump comes on, the water to the filter goes in the filter's INlet as it always should.

The filter is on the house side of the pump but the aerator is not. Starting from the well pump the main line comes into the well house and has an in-line blue plastic aerator installed. From there it connects to the retention tank, then it connects to the pressure tank and finally to the filter which connects to the house. I'll take a picture of the plumbing when I get home tonight and post it.

PS, thanks for the help.
 

Elliott

New Member
Messages
24
Reaction score
0
Points
0
I didn't have a chance to take the pictures last night so I'll have to do it tonight.

Are you familiar with Langelier saturation index?

The Langelier Saturation Index (LSI; also called Langelier Stability Index) is a calculated number used to predict the calcium carbonate stability of water; that is, whether a water will precipitate, dissolve, or be in equilibrium with calcium carbonate. Langelier developed a method for predicting the pH at which water is saturated in calcium carbonate (called pHs). The LSI is expressed as the difference between the actual system pH and the saturation pH.

LSI = pH - pHs

If the actual pH of the water is below the calculated saturation pH, the LSI is negative and the water has a very limited scaling potential. If the actual pH exceeds pHs, the LSI is positive, and being supersaturated with CaCO3, the water has a tendency to form scale. At increasing positive index values, the scaling potential increases.


There's a calculator at http://www.edstrom.com/Resources.cfm?doc_id=161
I tried pluggin my info into the equation but I don't know what the total alkalinity is. What's interesting is increasing the pH, temperature, or alkalinity while total hardness remains constant dramatically increases the scaling potential.

I wonder it that's why I'm seeing scale buildup in the water heater. My total hardness before the iron filter was installed was 47mg/l and pH was 7.65. After the filter was installed it went to 66mg/l and 8.1 which according to the LSI are enough to significantly raise the scaling potential. Another factormay be the air injection system increasing the amount of dissolved oxygen in the water.
 

Gary Slusser

That's all folks!
Messages
6,921
Reaction score
22
Points
38
Location
Wherever I park the motorhome.
Website
www.qualitywaterassociates.com
Are you familiar with Langelier saturation index?

The Langelier Saturation Index (LSI; also called Langelier Stability Index) is a calculated number used to predict the calcium carbonate stability of water; that is, whether a water will precipitate, dissolve, or be in equilibrium with calcium carbonate. Langelier developed a method for predicting the pH at which water is saturated in calcium carbonate (called pHs). The LSI is expressed as the difference between the actual system pH and the saturation pH.

LSI = pH - pHs

Not really...

The LSI was invented to determine IF concrete water pipe would be dissolved by water and allow the asbestos reinforcing fibers to be added to the water.

It is a poor choice to use to determine if a water is aggressive to materials other than concrete water pipe etc.. There are other indexes that are much better. For more on that and a list of better choices, check out
www.corrosion-doctors.org and then Search this site for LSI. Here is one link discussing the use of the LSI from my search there.
http://corrosion-doctors.org/Cooling-Water-Towers/corrosivity.htm

The calcite is increasing your hardness, it is supposed to. Hardness scale is formed when water containing hardness is heated.
 

Gary Slusser

That's all folks!
Messages
6,921
Reaction score
22
Points
38
Location
Wherever I park the motorhome.
Website
www.qualitywaterassociates.com
All those galvanized fittings and nipples on the blue pressure tank are probably adding iron to your treated water.

I don't think the tank back in the corner is a vent tank.

I can't make any sense out of the plumbing. I only see one line going into the retention tank and one at the filter. I think the injector is behind a pipe in the picture and in the line behind the retention tank. And there's lin through the floor...

The stuff is not plumber anything like I would have done it. And I would not use galvanized anywhere.

There is no drain on the retention tank and I don't see any way to vent air out of it.

Maybe you can use the Paint program to label everything.
 
Top
Hey, wait a minute.

This is awkward, but...

It looks like you're using an ad blocker. We get it, but (1) terrylove.com can't live without ads, and (2) ad blockers can cause issues with videos and comments. If you'd like to support the site, please allow ads.

If any particular ad is your REASON for blocking ads, please let us know. We might be able to do something about it. Thanks.
I've Disabled AdBlock    No Thanks