CAFI and GFCI Breakers

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Kiril

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Curious if anyone knows if a CAFI can be used to provide GFCI protection?

I can't seem to find any definitive information that states the "combination" features of CAFI is in fact combining an AFCI and GFCI into one breaker.
 

Speedy Petey

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I think you mean "AFCI".

When you hear "combination AFCI" they do NOT mean combination AFCI/GFCI. They mean a combination AFCI breaker.
Here is a quote from this Square D web page:
Combination AFCI circuit breakers provide an added dimension of safety for homeowners by sensing and responding to both parallel and series arcing incidents. Series arcing is often associated with damaged devices or cord sets. A series arc is an arcing incident across a break in a conductor. A common example is a cut across one of the two wires in a lamp cord, with a dangerous arc forming in the gap. Combination AFCI circuit breakers detect the arcing condition and turn off the circuit, thus providing the enhanced protection.



Although there are combination AFCI/GFCI breakers, they are not common and not what you would call necessary. There are pretty much no instances where you would need this type of breaker.
I think only Cutler-Hammer making them and only in a couple of versions.
 
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Kiril

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CAFI = Combination Arc-Fault Circuit Interrupters

Square D CAFI

Note the bold text.

Combination Arc-Fault Circuit Interrupters (CAFIs) expands the protection and safety that a circuit breaker provides within the home and, more specifically, help reduce the risk of electrical fires. The CAFI provides arc fault protection for the branch circuit, as well as, protection for cord sets and power-supply cords. When an arcing event is detected, the AFCI analyzes the event and the circuit breaker opens when it determines a hazardous condition exists. With the enhanced protection of the CAFI, arcs are detected at levels down to 5 amperes, including series arcs, parallel arcs and line-to-ground arcs.

So I guess what I'm wondering here is if the line-to-ground arc protection is considered as providing ground fault protection?

I also think the 2008 NEC requires CAFI for all lighting and receptacle circuits (confirmation)?
 
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Jimbo

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. With the enhanced protection of the CAFI, arcs are detected at levels down to 5 amperes, including series arcs, parallel arcs and line-to-ground arcs.

So I guess what I'm wondering here is if the line-to-ground arc protection is considered as providing ground fault protection?

)?


5 amperes is a potentially lethal shock...in fact well beyond the potential lethal shock, so in terms of providing human safety, this just is not the thing.
 

Speedy Petey

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Regular AFCI protection also provides 20ma of GFI protection. Not enough for any place that GFI proptection is required for personell.
AFGF breakers DO provide the 5ma of GFI protection required in 210.8.

A) WHAT is the "cheaper solution you were thinking of?

B) WHAT was the solution for? WHAT are you trying to do that you need both??? At least that a $12 GFI wouldn't solve?
 

Kiril

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A) WHAT is the "cheaper solution you were thinking of?

A CAFI breaker instead of a CAFI breaker + GFCI receptacles.

B) WHAT was the solution for? WHAT are you trying to do that you need both??? At least that a $12 GFI wouldn't solve?

1) To get both equipment and personnel protection on the entire circuit. This would be mostly for kitchen, bathrooms, garage. A high quality GFCI is going to set me back more than $12, and I personally don't care for feed through circuits.

2) Fewer devices to maintain = lower maintenance costs and I will always know where to look if I lose power.

3) Allows me more flexible options in GFCI protected areas (ex. use of surge protected receptacles)

Use of CAFI breakers in areas other than bedrooms would also serve as a proactive move towards compliance with NEC2008.
 

Speedy Petey

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A CAFI breaker instead of a CAFI breaker + GFCI receptacles.
You are looking for AFGF breakers as I mentioned earlier. Good luck finding them. Until more people need them you will not see them on any shelves.


A high quality GFCI is going to set me back more than $12, and I personally don't care for feed through circuits.
No, a high quality GFI IS $12-$15. I don't know where you are buying them.


So because you don't like "feed through" "circuits" ( I assume you mean "devices") you'd either use a GFI breaker or ALL GFI devices????


Basically you want to overprotect you entire house? That's fine I guess, if that's what you want.
I'd put my money/effort in other places. A newly/newer wired home is QUITE safe electrically. The NEC and other codes demand this.
 

Kiril

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You are looking for AFGF breakers as I mentioned earlier. Good luck finding them. Until more people need them you will not see them on any shelves.

Since I'm using Square-D those are not an option, and the Eaton ones I looked at are not combination AFCI far as I can tell.

No, a high quality GFI IS $12-$15. I don't know where you are buying them.

Can you provide a source for a $12 leviton 16362-HG?

So because you don't like "feed through" "circuits" ( I assume you mean "devices") you'd either use a GFI breaker or ALL GFI devices????

I don't like having one GFCI receptacle controlling multiple receptacles. I am viewing the "circuit" with respect to GFCI protection. The GFCI protected portion of the entire circuit "feeds through" a single GFCI receptacle to downstream receptacles. Perhaps I am wrong, but is this not how it works when using a single GFCI receptacle to protect multiple receptacles?

Basically you want to overprotect you entire house? That's fine I guess, if that's what you want.
I'd put my money/effort in other places. A newly/newer wired home is QUITE safe electrically. The NEC and other codes demand this.

Yes, and no. I'm considering taking a proactive move towards NEC2008 compliance, which requires all lighting and receptacle circuits use CAFI breakers, which negates using GFCI and AFGF breakers.

I'm curious. Where would you spend your money if rewiring a house to comply with NEC2008?

p.s. Nothing wrong with over protection if you have $50,000 or more of equipment plugged in.
 
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Speedy Petey

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Can you provide a source for a $12 leviton 16362-HG?
Why the hell do you need hospital grade devices in your home?????
Besides, "hospital grade" is NOT the only way to attain "quality".
Also, that p/n you listed is not a GFI.
If someone suggested they wanted to use hospital grade devices in their entire home first I'd laugh; then I'd ask to borrow $500, because they obviously did need the money.



I don't like having one GFCI receptacle controlling multiple receptacles. I am viewing the "circuit" with respect to GFCI protection. The GFCI protected portion of the entire circuit "feeds through" a single GFCI receptacle to downstream receptacles. Perhaps I am wrong, but is this not how it works when using a single GFCI receptacle to protect multiple receptacles?
Like I said, you do not like GFI devices protecting the whole circuit. Which is odd because GFI breakers work EXACTLY the same way.



Yes, and no. I'm considering taking a proactive move towards NEC2008 compliance, which requires all lighting and receptacle circuits use CAFI breakers, which negates using GFCI and AFGF breakers.
Absolutely NOT all circuits require AFCI under the 2008 NEC. Safe to say most 120v, 15 & 20 amp circuits though.


I'm curious. Where would you spend your money if rewiring a house to comply with NEC2008?
I'd wire the house to exceed code in some places. Others I'd stay right with code.
Using GFI and AFCI protecting on the ENTIRE house would be silly IMO.

If you are the worrisome type I think a sprinkler systems is the best place to put your money.


EDIT:
p.s. Nothing wrong with over protection if you have $50,000 or more of equipment plugged in.
What does this equipment have to do with it? The protection you suggest has NOTHING to do with protecting equipment!!!
For that install a high $$ whole house surge protector and a full lighting rod system.
 
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Kiril

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Why the hell do you need hospital grade devices in your home?????
Besides, "hospital grade" is NOT the only way to attain "quality".
Also, that p/n you listed is not a GFI.
If someone suggested they wanted to use hospital grade devices in their entire home first I'd laugh; then I'd ask to borrow $500, because they obviously did need the money.

What would you suggest then for a commercial grade GFCI?

BTW the model number was taken from this site

Like I said, you do not like GFI devices protecting the whole circuit. Which is odd because GFI breakers work EXACTLY the same way.

I wasn't aware that a GFCI receptacle and a GFCI breaker are built the same. Plus, when you lose power in a room, where do look first?

Absolutely NOT all circuits require AFCI under the 2008 NEC. Safe to say most 120v, 15 & 20 amp circuits though.

Yes, and hence the problem with combined protection at the breaker.

Square D CAFI

The 2005 National Electric Code (NEC) required combination arc fault circuit interrupters (CAFI) protect bedroom electrical outlets including receptacles, lights and smoke alarms. The 2005 NEC also establishes a new requirement that a “combination” type AFCI protect the bedroom outlets instead of branch feeder circuit breakers beginning January 1, 2008. The 2008 NEC is expanding this requirement to additional rooms, halls and closets within the home. The combination AFCI (CAFI) “combines” protection from parallel and series arc faults to provide the most comprehensive arc fault protection available.

I'd wire the house to exceed code in some places. Others I'd stay right with code.
Using GFI and AFCI protecting on the ENTIRE house would be silly IMO.

I never said I wanted to wire the entire house with GFCI protection, only the areas required by code.

What does this equipment have to do with it? The protection you suggest has NOTHING to do with protecting equipment!!!

From the same link as above.

The CAFI circuit breaker provides arc fault protection for the branch circuit, as well as protection for cord sets and power-supply cords. When an arcing event is detected, the CAFI analyzes the event and the circuit breaker opens when it determines a hazardous condition exists. With the enhanced protection of a CAFI, arcs are detected at levels down to 5 amps, including series arcs, parallel arcs and line-to-ground arcs. Because series arcs are associated with single conductor damage in a cable, damaged devices or cord sets, the enhanced protection that a CAFI provides in this area is significant.

Note the bold. Isn't this providing some protection for plugged in equipment?

I agree with you on the sprinkler system, however it will cost substantially more than a handful of CAFI breakers.
 
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Speedy Petey

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BTW the model number was taken from this site

When I click on that link I get a regular duplex receptacle, not a GFI.




From the same link as above.

The CAFI circuit breaker provides arc fault protection for the branch circuit, as well as protection for cord sets and power-supply cords. When an arcing event is detected, the CAFI analyzes the event and the circuit breaker opens when it determines a hazardous condition exists. With the enhanced protection of a CAFI, arcs are detected at levels down to 5 amps, including series arcs, parallel arcs and line-to-ground arcs. Because series arcs are associated with single conductor damage in a cable, damaged devices or cord sets, the enhanced protection that a CAFI provides in this area is significant.

Note the bold. Isn't this providing some protection for plugged in equipment?
Absolutely not. It is protecting YOU and the structure from frayed and arcing cords that do not trip circuit breakers.
 

JWelectric

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Kiril

If I am reading your post correctly there are a couple of things that needs pointing out to you.

First the use of combination type Arc-Fault devices is not a 2008 rule. In the 2005 code it clearly states that the use of combination type Arc-Fault devices are to be installed no later than January 1, 2008. This is a 2005 rule and took effect on January 1 no matter if the 2008 cycle was adopted or not.

Second the combination Arc-Fault is not a combination Arc and Ground fault but is a combination of parallel and series arc protection.
This protection if for the wiring that supplies equipment not for the equipment itself.

At the present time the only way to arc-fault protect a circuit that is required to also have ground fault is to use ground fault receptacles as there are no combination arc/ground fault devices on the market to the best of my knowledge.

If you are dead set on using the hospital grade receptacles in your house keep in mind that some of the HP grade devices will require the installation of two equipment grounding conductors. To jump from the grounding terminal of the device to bond the yoke of the device would violate the UL listing due to manufacturer’s installation instructions.
 

Kiril

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When I click on that link I get a regular duplex receptacle, not a GFI.

I checked the link in two different browsers and it works for me?

You can look on page B-10 (pg 30 of pdf) of the Leviton L-101 Catalog

Edit: Doh, your right it is not a GFCI. :( Change that number to 7899-L (B-15 pg 35 in the above pdf) which is commercial grade.

And the correct link on the TWAcomm site

Absolutely not. It is protecting YOU and the structure from frayed and arcing cords that do not trip circuit breakers.

Yes, I understand that. My question is wouldn't this also provide additional protection for the device itself against undesirable power fluctuations in addition to providing some protection to other devices in the circuit that may be sensitive to power fluctuations?
 
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Kiril

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First the use of combination type Arc-Fault devices is not a 2008 rule. In the 2005 code it clearly states that the use of combination type Arc-Fault devices are to be installed no later than January 1, 2008. This is a 2005 rule and took effect on January 1 no matter if the 2008 cycle was adopted or not.

Right, I understand this. CA is currently using 2002 NEC far as I know, so any use of CAFI would be optional.

Second the combination Arc-Fault is not a combination Arc and Ground fault but is a combination of parallel and series arc protection.
This protection if for the wiring that supplies equipment not for the equipment itself.

At the present time the only way to arc-fault protect a circuit that is required to also have ground fault is to use ground fault receptacles as there are no combination arc/ground fault devices on the market to the best of my knowledge.

I'm assuming you mean ground fault for personnel protection?

It also might help to know that I am going to be using UPB for home automation, and I believe these devices are rather sensitive to power fluctuations.

If you are dead set on using the hospital grade receptacles in your house

Not dead set on anything except using high quality materials that are built to last.
 
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JWelectric

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What do you mean by
power fluctuations.
?

The Arc-Fault and Ground Fault will not give any protection to power surges.
Why would you want to install Ground Fault Circuit Interrupters on a home automation for in the first place?
 

Jadnashua

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I think your thougths on power fluctuation protection with the CAFI is flawed. If there was a wiring problem, that would be a problem that the CAFI might not catch. If it was that severe to trip it, it's more of a safety/fire protection situation than anything to do that would potentially mess with any home automation you may have.

If you are going to use powerline signalling to control devices, electrical noise is a problem, but I don't think that CB would do anything for you, as the levels it would protect are orders of magnitude larger than any control signals. You'd find out when nothing worked, not because a CB tripped.
 
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