Cadet 3 FloWise (1.28 gal) with Korky WaterWise Fill Valve uses 1.6 Gal

Discussion in 'Toilet Forum discussions' started by miracj, Jun 24, 2009.

  1. miracj

    miracj New Member

    Messages:
    17
    Location:
    Boston, Massachusetts, USA
    I bought an American Standard Cadet 3 FloWise (1.28 gal) 2 piece tank and bowl recently.
    (Parts number 4021.128.*** and 3014.128.***)

    Based upon information here and from other sources, I didn't install the original fill valve but immediately replaced it with Korky WaterWise Fill Valve (Model 818Z), but left the original Cadet 3 flapper there (although I also have a larger Korky Cadet 3 flapper on standby). Based upon my water meter (which measures in .02 cu feet increments (and is resolvable to .01 cu feet), the toilet uses 1.6 Gal per flush.

    Is there something wrong in using the Korky WaterWise fill valve, that is making it use extra water? Or perhaps I have it set wrong? I have the water line set to 5/8" below the fill valve top, and the C/L line is 1" above the fill line.

    I might point out that I have had no issues with any flushes over a period of 2 weeks of usage, including one person in my family that consistently can clog a "normal" toilet (even with no toilet paper). The spot size seems adequate, and there seems to be no stains left in the bowl. There does seem to be a little splash that seems to collect some spotting on the top of the bowl.

    Thanks for any input,

    Regards,

    Ira

    Attached Files:

    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 9, 2009
  2. miracj

    miracj New Member

    Messages:
    17
    Location:
    Boston, Massachusetts, USA
    Since I received no responses to my question, I decided to reduce the water in the tank by taking a plastic peanut jar, filling it with rocks (so it would not float) and sealing it with the top. The toilet now flushes using 1.28 gallons and we still get clean flushing.

    After a couple of weeks of testing, I may try reducing it a bit more, but I suspect it will start to have issues with bowl streaks.

    Regards,

    Ira
  3. jadnashua

    jadnashua Retired Defense Industry Engineer xxx

    Messages:
    21,948
    Location:
    New England
    Must have missed this one..I was on vacation when posted.

    A generic valve may not have the same bowl/tank fill ratio and it's dumping more water down the drain by overfilling the bowl than the factory calibrated unit. For example, on the Korky valve used by Toto, they have a special restrictor to get the right balance. A generic replacment (even from Korky) will work, but you could end up using more water or failing to fill the bowl to the top. So, by adding a non-flushable volume and reducing the water available in the tank, you may not get the performance the thing is capable of. It sounds like you'd need to add a restrictor so not as much goes into the bowl. The goal is to have both the bowl and the tank refill at exactly the same time rather than dumping excess into the bowl while waiting for the tank to refill.
  4. Terry

    Terry Administrator Staff Member

    Messages:
    14,943
    Location:
    Bothell, Washington
    The Korky Waterwise fill valve is a 1.6 gallon fill valve.

    It will shut off for a leaking flapper.
    But it's not a 1.28 fill valve.

    [​IMG]
    Demo of the product
  5. miracj

    miracj New Member

    Messages:
    17
    Location:
    Boston, Massachusetts, USA
    This sounds reasonable. Any suggestions to the best way to restrict the water volume to the bowl refill, ideally (but not absolutely needed) without increasing noise?

    That and the supposedly quiet refill were the reasons for purchasing it.

    Their literature on that unit, both on the web site, and the instructions which came with the Waterwise fill valve, does not specify that it is a 1.6 gallon fill valve ! :(

    However, before purchasing the valve, I explicitly asked Korky's customer service via email if it was compatible with the toilet model I was purchasing. While they were very helpful as far as Customer Service goes, the Customer Service person did not seem to have the correct info, stating "Our Waterwise valve will work just fine in your application."

    And frankly, if I were promoting a valve as "QuietFill", I'd at least publish comparison noise level data before and after for some typical units.

    Otherwise, the Korky valve seems well conceived and designed, but falls into a typical TLI (Too little information instead of TMI) that many web sites seem to have.

    Thanks,

    Ira
  6. jimbo

    jimbo Plumber

    Messages:
    8,997
    Location:
    San Diego
    The "issue" with AmStd fill valves involved the ones with the yellow top. The stopped using those a long time ago.


    Today's high performance toilets, and especially the ultra lows, typically use unique, purpose-built parts to achieve the flush performance and the water spec. The days of "generic" toilet parts is coming to an end!
  7. Davebutch

    Davebutch New Member

    Messages:
    16
    Location:
    Richmond, VA
    Do American Std toilets come with a jar of rocks in case adjustments are needed?
  8. micp879

    micp879 New Member

    Messages:
    68
    Location:
    Martinez, CA
    Generally a fill valve will have zero effect on how much water a toilet flushes. The amount of water in each flush is mostly related to how quickly the flapper closes. Korky was absolutely right when they said their fill valve would be compatible with your toilet. For that matter, practically any fill valve should be compatible. The only area that the fill valve could possibly effect the amount of water used would be the excess amount of water used to fill the bowl after a flush, while the tank is still filling. All the excess water would just spill over the weir in the toilet, resulting in lost water. But as far as the actual flush it self, the fill valve won't have any affect on 1.28 vs 1.6 gpf.
  9. Terry

    Terry Administrator Staff Member

    Messages:
    14,943
    Location:
    Bothell, Washington
    The fill valve does make a difference in how much water is used.

    A Fluidmaster replacement 400A fill valve is a big water waster.
    They will overfill the bowls by quite a bunch.

    The standard Korky 528 fill valve with under fill some bowls.
    The Korky 528T restricts what goes into the tank, forcing more bowl fill, but still a lot less then the Fluidmaster 400A.

    Some of the Eco Drake tanks have their own Eco fill valves, designed to work with the 1.28 gallon concept.

    Granted, the flapper will make a difference too. Some are designed to drop quicker.

    All of these parts come into play.
    At the factory, they match the components, with knowledge of how much "bowl fill" they will need, and the capacity of the tank.
    How fast does the tank complete filling in regard to the bowl filling.

    When Ben Grumbles from the EPA came to Seattle for our televised infomercial on water saving WaterSense toilets, we could see that the old style 3.5 gallon tanks would overfill the bowl by as much as 2.0 gallons.
    So that made them what? maybe five gallons?
    It was two gallons going down the drain, after the flush had taken place.
    It served no purpose whatsoever.
    Last edited: Jul 10, 2009
  10. miracj

    miracj New Member

    Messages:
    17
    Location:
    Boston, Massachusetts, USA
    Some additional info for those reading.

    1st, I was using the original American Standard Flapper, not the Korky Cadet 3 replacement, so that is not the reason for the difference.

    The original fill valve identified itself as a Fluidmaster 400, and had a black American Standard plastic top on it. The white fill tube had no constrictors on it and looks unmodified. Thus there seems to be no effective way to identify that this fill valve was anything other than a standard fill valve.

    The tank space used by the Korky Waterwise and the above Fluidmaster 400 seems about the same and should not make a significant difference in the filling of the tank

    The bowl was extremely clean with the 1.6 gallon flush and may be a very small bit dirtier (possibly not even viewable) with the modified tank (with the space taking jar) flushing 1.28 gallons.

    Regards,

    Ira
  11. CWSam

    CWSam New Member

    Messages:
    3
    Location:
    Awendaw South Carolina
    Low water surface area w/ Cadet 3 flowise

    I have just installed the Cadet 3 Flowise 1.28 GPM. I notice that the bowl only has about a 7x6 water surface. I'm reading it should have around 9x8.

    My question is how can I increase the water surface area. The flapper is a big green thing with a yellow float? attached to it.

    Any thoughts would be appreciated

    [​IMG]
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 8, 2009
  12. Ian Gills

    Ian Gills Senior Robin Hood Guy

    Messages:
    2,777
    Location:
    USA
    Have you placed the refill tube from the fill valve down the overflow pipe?

    It should be placed there to top up the trap.
  13. Ian Gills

    Ian Gills Senior Robin Hood Guy

    Messages:
    2,777
    Location:
    USA
    What a beautiful toilet.

    Although not yet cauked at the base I see. Do you not trust this sturdy steed?
  14. Terry

    Terry Administrator Staff Member

    Messages:
    14,943
    Location:
    Bothell, Washington
    You can try adding more water slowly to the bowl to see if it's even possible to get a larger water spot.

    The black tube on the fill valve is what fills up the bowl after the flush.

    The water depth is determined by the top of the trapway bend.
  15. CWSam

    CWSam New Member

    Messages:
    3
    Location:
    Awendaw South Carolina
    Low water level in bowl in Cadet 3

    Everything is attached correctly. If I flush it quickly the water in the bowl only comes up to about 7x6. I've found that just pausing a second when pushing down the lever apparently causes the flapper to close a bit slower thus I'm now getting a proper water level in the bowl of about 9x8.
  16. Ian Gills

    Ian Gills Senior Robin Hood Guy

    Messages:
    2,777
    Location:
    USA
    There is nothing wrong with carpet in a residential bathroom, although it is not allowed by code in a commercial one.

    In fact, despite people often complaining about carpets in residential bathrooms I would like to raise a few advantages to having them. In the UK, I have carpet in the bathroom in my flat there and it is a joy to behold.


    Advantages of carpets in bathrooms:

    •They make bathrooms appear more warm and inviting.
    •They are softer than tile and many people find them comfortable on bare feet.
    •Bathroom slip hazards are reduced. It is easier to slip on hard bathroom surfaces, such as tile, than on carpet.
    •Installation is generally quick and inexpensive.

    So long live carpet in residential bathrooms!
    Last edited: Oct 8, 2009
  17. Cass

    Cass Plumber

    Messages:
    5,980
    Location:
    Ohio
    As time marches on toilets get more complicated...I can see a future with computer monotered toilets and $300.00 service calls to swap out a control board...inspectors will be checking water usage of your toilet and fines issued for improperly working / flushing toilets...

    People will be limited to 20 Gal. of water per day per person...

    They are already talking about a unit that attatches to your electrical system to monotor your usage of electricity...it will only be a matter of time before they fine you for using to much..

    Where is Orwell when we need him...
  18. Runs with bison

    Runs with bison Member

    Messages:
    892
    Location:
    Midwest
    That's not as difficult as it sounds. Once I finish replacing the 3.6 gpf and 1.6 gpf Gerbers remaining in my house I expect to be down around 22 gpd per person. I'm presently at about 28-30 gpd.

    There already is some sort of rate penalty in some locations for high use. (Houston had some penalty rates over a certain level when I lived there.) This is particularly true in areas with extended drought or water shortages. Atlantans were ticked off during the water restrictions by a mansion that was using an average of 390,000 gallons/month! That's enough for over 400 people at my current usage rate.

    There were fines possible for violating the statewide outdoor watering restrictions in Georgia. However, in typical southern organizational style nobody seemed to have actual law enforcement jurisdiction for writing the tickets when I lived there. The real threat was that the utility could shut off your water if they caught you violating the rules several times.

    I've not heard talk of "fines." The utilities have wanted the ability to monitor electrical usage on the fly and shut off/throttle back high draw appliances during peak hours. This sort of monitoring also allows them to charge more per kwh for use during peak hours, and less during off peak. It's carrot and a stick.
  19. Cass

    Cass Plumber

    Messages:
    5,980
    Location:
    Ohio
    Some areas Just charge you X amount more per 1000 if you go over a certain # of Gal. / Mo.

    My kids use 50 Gal./ shower....

    To avoid problems...drill a well...
  20. Runs with bison

    Runs with bison Member

    Messages:
    892
    Location:
    Midwest
    I hear ya. When my kids first transisitioned from tub to shower they wouldn't come out until the hot water ran out...and still forgot to wash their hair. We finally resorted to little 5 minute hourglass timers on the shower wall that they could flip a time or two. This made a game of it and they became more reasonable.

    I recently converted all the baths to ultra low flow showerheads. The trick was finding ones that gave a good shower. Now a typical shower is about 7 mins with ~10 gallons water used.
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