Builder had p-trap installed below kitchen cabinets

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mbdsmith

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Hello, I am wanting to fix a leak in the drainage pipes below kitchen sink. When you look under the corner kitchen sink, it appears that there was never a p-trap installed. We noticed years ago that our finished basement wall below the kitchen area had brown streaks of liquid coming down and that the ceiling was stained there, so we had a plumber come out and had to cut an access panel to that area in the basement. First plumber said that he tightened things up and added "something" to help it to not leak. The plumber did seem to think that the p-trap that was found after the access was made was in a strange place, but he did not decide to do anything about it. We thought all was good.

We don't go in the basement much so not sure how long the first "fix" lasted. Went down in the basement one day and noticed the brown streaks coming down the wall again. Called a different plumber to come look at it and he said that the trap shouldn't be where it is, but he didn't seem to think it was important enough to move it either. He stated that he used his wrench to tighten the nut and that it should be fine. He said people usually hand tighten and that in this case it just needed to be tightened with a wrench. He said to give him a call if this didn't work. Well, it didn't work and we feel like we are wasting money on having plumbers come out and not fixing the problem.

I think the leak is coming from a coupler under the sink area. I notice when we use the garbage disposal that it sometimes causes a great deal of vibration and perhaps that has caused a joint to leak. I am also wondering if there should be some kind of venting because the double sink sometimes drains slow, usually have to push the rubber disposal baffle in to help the drain work better. I'm attaching pictures of the pipes below the cabinet and then from in the basement looking up. Since this is a corner, and there seems to be a tight working area in the basement, I'm wondering it that is why the previous plumbers didn't want to mess with it.

I would appreciate feedback on the best way to deal with this. I am planning on tackling this myself since I have had two plumbers that have failed. I'm planning on taking all of the pipes out from under the sink and redoing that, my concern is how to deal with the below the cabinet area that is in the basement. I see that I can remove the p-trap nut there, but after that the pipes are cemented and it looks like that joint before the p-trap is leaking as well, or it could just be where the liquid has drained down the pipes from above.
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Jadnashua

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All of the plumbing codes in the USA that I'm aware of, do not allow the p-trap to be below the floor of the fixture served. Plus, there is no evidence visible that the trap is vented. To solve that, will take a fair amount of work. It looks like the 90 before it goes through the floor is leaking. Can't tell for sure (there are clear primers), but the joint may not have been primed. Many inspectors require the use of the purple primer so an easy, quick visual inspection can verify that primer was used to make the joint. Even when the p-trap is above the floor, there's a limit on how far below the sink it can be...I think that's 2', and you are probably beyond that, too.

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mbdsmith

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All of the plumbing codes in the USA that I'm aware of, do not allow the p-trap to be below the floor of the fixture served. Plus, there is no evidence visible that the trap is vented. To solve that, will take a fair amount of work. It looks like the 90 before it goes through the floor is leaking. Can't tell for sure (there are clear primers), but the joint may not have been primed. Many inspectors require the use of the purple primer so an easy, quick visual inspection can verify that primer was used to make the joint. Even when the p-trap is above the floor, there's a limit on how far below the sink it can be...I think that's 2', and you are probably beyond that, too.

So if I set the drain up like the picture posted by MKS above, you are saying I need 2' from the sink? I was thinking I could run the pipe like the pic above that MKS posted, but didn't know what to do about the bend below the floor. Is it possible to leave that trap there? I was thinking a vent with setup like this post https://terrylove.com/images/homeowner/evans_2.jpg
 

MKS

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So if I set the drain up like the picture posted by MKS above, you are saying I need 2' from the sink? I was thinking I could run the pipe like the pic above that MKS posted, but didn't know what to do about the bend below the floor. Is it possible to leave that trap there? I was thinking a vent with setup like this post https://terrylove.com/images/homeowner/evans_2.jpg
I believe if you set it up as depicted in the picture I linked to and the vent picture you linked to you would be well on your way. Two foot concern resolved.
Yes the trap below the floor would need to be removed.
Assuming this is an appropriate sized drain line for your sink you would connect your drain to it.
What jadnashua and I feel would be challenging is getting vented properly. I believe the pictures of these installations have the vent line running up a wall cavity and out the roof.
 

Plumber69

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Hello, I am wanting to fix a leak in the drainage pipes below kitchen sink. When you look under the corner kitchen sink, it appears that there was never a p-trap installed. We noticed years ago that our finished basement wall below the kitchen area had brown streaks of liquid coming down and that the ceiling was stained there, so we had a plumber come out and had to cut an access panel to that area in the basement. First plumber said that he tightened things up and added "something" to help it to not leak. The plumber did seem to think that the p-trap that was found after the access was made was in a strange place, but he did not decide to do anything about it. We thought all was good.

We don't go in the basement much so not sure how long the first "fix" lasted. Went down in the basement one day and noticed the brown streaks coming down the wall again. Called a different plumber to come look at it and he said that the trap shouldn't be where it is, but he didn't seem to think it was important enough to move it either. He stated that he used his wrench to tighten the nut and that it should be fine. He said people usually hand tighten and that in this case it just needed to be tightened with a wrench. He said to give him a call if this didn't work. Well, it didn't work and we feel like we are wasting money on having plumbers come out and not fixing the problem.

I think the leak is coming from a coupler under the sink area. I notice when we use the garbage disposal that it sometimes causes a great deal of vibration and perhaps that has caused a joint to leak. I am also wondering if there should be some kind of venting because the double sink sometimes drains slow, usually have to push the rubber disposal baffle in to help the drain work better. I'm attaching pictures of the pipes below the cabinet and then from in the basement looking up. Since this is a corner, and there seems to be a tight working area in the basement, I'm wondering it that is why the previous plumbers didn't want to mess with it.

I would appreciate feedback on the best way to deal with this. I am planning on tackling this myself since I have had two plumbers that have failed. I'm planning on taking all of the pipes out from under the sink and redoing that, my concern is how to deal with the below the cabinet area that is in the basement. I see that I can remove the p-trap nut there, but after that the pipes are cemented and it looks like that joint before the p-trap is leaking as well, or it could just be where the liquid has drained down the pipes from above.View attachment 34652 View attachment 34653 View attachment 34654 View attachment 34655
Your joints were not glued properly.
 
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mbdsmith

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I believe if you set it up as depicted in the picture I linked to and the vent picture you linked to you would be well on your way. Two foot concern resolved.
Yes the trap below the floor would need to be removed.
Assuming this is an appropriate sized drain line for your sink you would connect your drain to it.
What jadnashua and I feel would be challenging is getting vented properly. I believe the pictures of these installations have the vent line running up a wall cavity and out the roof.

Ok, I was able to follow the drain pipe that the kitchen drains into back into the unfinished part of the basement. Attaching pics of where it goes from there. First pic with the orange arrow is where the drain from the kitchen goes. Second pic has more detail, and last pic is where the pipe vents up to the outside. Does this change anything on how to deal with this problem?
 

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Jadnashua

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The 2' maximum rule (as I understand it), is just that...the p-trap cannot be FURTHER than 2' from the drain it services and CANNOT be below the subfloor (that's not true in Canada).

As shown in the pictures, that vent is not working for the kitchen sink line, unless I'm way of.
 

MKS

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If you look at the diagram I linked to and the picture you linked to you will notice that the p-trap arm connects to the side of a sani tee. The bottom of said t goes to the drain the top to the vent. The vent should rise to 42" above the floor or 6" above the flood plane of the fixture it is venting before turning horizontally if needed to go around something then turning back up through the roof.
In a proper installation the vent pipe would be there ready to go.
There is an example of this here I believe.

https://terrylove.com/forums/index....or-utility-sink-and-washer-in-basement.49138/

Terry explains this and there is a picture.
 

MKS

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If there is no non invasive way to get connected to a proper vent and if it meets code where you live an air admittance valve maybe the solution to the vent problem. It would go above the tee a distance I'm not aware of and screw onto an adapter.
I'm not a pro, just trying to use the information presented here.
 

Terry

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Nothing was done right in that home.

The waste to the kitchen sink should have been 2", and then a 1-1/2" traparm and p-trap.
The best fix now would be to add an AAV below the sink in the cabinet.

Waste going from vertical to horizontal should be, Long turn 90, Wye fitting, Combo fitting, Two 45 fittings.

Waste going from horizontal to vertical can be, Medium 90, Santee,

30048-2b87975140418415a6a0c8a415987360.jpg

This is a closet flange for a toilet. Not a vent.

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The fitting to the left of the wye should have been a combo or a wye and a 45.

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These fittings are wrong too. They should have been wye fittings.
Horizontal changes are also wye fittings. It's too bad you builder didn't hire a plumber.
 

mbdsmith

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Nothing was done right in that home.

The waste to the kitchen sink should have been 2", and then a 1-1/2" traparm and p-trap.
The best fix now would be to add an AAV below the sink in the cabinet.

Waste going from vertical to horizontal should be, Long turn 90, Wye fitting, Combo fitting, Two 45 fittings.

Waste going from horizontal to vertical can be, Medium 90, Santee,

30048-2b87975140418415a6a0c8a415987360.jpg

This is a closet flange for a toilet. Not a vent.

30047-b41c6f7806bdf08c19b553da70480f2c.jpg


The fitting to the left of the wye should have been a combo or a wye and a 45.

index.php


These fittings are wrong too. They should have been wye fittings.
Horizontal changes are also wye fittings. It's too bad you builder didn't hire a plumber.[/Q

The builder did have a plumber involved, I guess he wasn't a very good one. You are right about the one pic being the toilet, I got turned around. Anyway, I took a pic at another angle and believe that the vent is the one where I put the orange arrow. It leads out towards the garage and I'm guessing up to the roof. If this is a vent, do you still recommend a vent under the sink as well? If so, is there a rule as to how high up the vent pipe needs to go under the sink?
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Also took a pic at another angle where the drain pipe is coming from the kitchen and entering the bigger drain. I'm a bit confused when you say the fittings are wrong and should have been wye fittings. I was under the impression that the fitting was a wye fitting, or do you mean the pipe above where the kitchen drains in? he two bigger 3 inch pipes to the left of the kitchen drain are vents that go from the furnace to the outside.

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MKS

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Plumbing code is like grammar in 3d.
A lot to learn and know. And no 'app'.
Thanks.
 

Jadnashua

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To be a proper vent, it MUST go vertical BEFORE the waste turns down after the trap arm. The whole idea is to provide an air path to the trap so it can't get suctioned dry. That doesn't reliably happen when you try to vent things anywhere lower than the actual trap arm, then, that connection also must be made within a certain distance of the point the line starts down or the slope may not provide an open air path. On a 2" pipe, that's 5'. It gets longer with a larger diameter pipe, and shorter with a smaller one.
 

MKS

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If that is the vent
IMG_2174.JPG

I'll go out on a limb and say it's wrong.
Look for a vent stack or stacks on roof and try to follow them down through the attic,hot today, and see if yiu can find where they go through.
I would put the aav in so you can change it without interference from the bottom of the sink.
 

mbdsmith

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Ok, thanks everyone. I'm learning allot, but there's so much to learn! Just got done researching the difference between a wye and a sanitary tee, since I'm not a plumber, they looked the same to me, but now I know that is not the case. I was going to try and do all of this myself, but now that I'm being told that sanitary tee's were used where wyes should have been, it makes me feel like I need to have all of this plumbing redone, problem is, seems there aren't too many plumbers in my neck of the woods that follow code, as seen from how my house was done, as well as having two plumbers out already that haven't addressed the issues. I've lived in this house since it was built, 16 years. Have't had any clogs or plumbing problems, except for the problem with the leaking crap from the kitchen drain, so I'm tempted just to redo under the sink area and let it go, but down the road, should I decide to sell, and someone wants an inspection...
 

mbdsmith

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If that is the vent
View attachment 34676
I'll go out on a limb and say it's wrong.
Look for a vent stack or stacks on roof and try to follow them down through the attic,hot today, and see if yiu can find where they go through.
I would put the aav in so you can change it without interference from the bottom of the sink.

You are right, this pipe is not a vent, it goes to the bathroom sink, now I feel like an idiot for not figuring it out the first time.
 

MKS

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Don't despair, it apparently passed its rough inspection and or occupancy inspection. If it works leave it. If a prospective buyer's inspector doesn't like it so what. The price is still x. They can buy it and fix it, my two cents.
If you want to improve on it this would be a good place to ask questions.
 

Cacher_Chick

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No licensed plumber or building inspector that knows anything about proper plumbing would have signed off on that house.
No one likes to hear that something in their home is completely and absolutely wrong, but sometimes it needs to be said.
The good news is that PVC pipe is cheap. The bad news is that the best thing to do is remove what is there and start over.
 
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