Broken Waste Pipe - Repairing it and looking for answers in Vancouver

Discussion in 'Remodel Forum & Blog' started by johnfrwhipple, Apr 21, 2012.

  1. johnfrwhipple

    johnfrwhipple Bathroom Design & Build - North Vancouver, B.C.

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    So my Journey Man called me yesterday to let me know we had an issue at my house. I was out quoting a new project and David was returning some gear to the house. He noticed a strange drip on some Ram Board that we had stored UNDER my backyard covered deck. I did say UNDER. He called me and send a few pictures. I viewed them, made a 180 for home and asked him to start ripping down the soffit material.

    Here is what we found.

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    As soon as I say these pictures I zipped back home.

    David had the soffit down by the time I showed up.

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    [​IMG]

    Cont...

    JW

    www.No-Curb.com - my blog site on Barrier Free, No Curb, No Dam and Hobless Showers
    (604) 506-6792 jfrwhipple@gmail.com
    Last edited: Oct 30, 2014
  2. johnfrwhipple

    johnfrwhipple Bathroom Design & Build - North Vancouver, B.C.

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    [​IMG]

    We found the source of the ooze. A mix of dishwaher water, dish water, spray foam all fighting it's way out the bottom side of this spray foam.

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    Cracked right after the coupling.



    I carved out some of the spray foam and used my Japanese Pull saw to cut out the coupling and prep for a repair.

    [​IMG]

    I thought I might find a belly and perhaps this area was sagged and maybe froze but the pipe was perfectly clean. That's one positive so far.
  3. johnfrwhipple

    johnfrwhipple Bathroom Design & Build - North Vancouver, B.C.

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    I cut a piece of ABS about 3/16" smaller than my void in the line. Removed the collars from two MJ fittings and stuck them on my short section of 2" ABS pipe. I rolled the ends back like you do when putting on a condom. This part is tough and requires good hand strength to do.

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    You can see the left side is flipped back. This is the tricky part and once you get the MJ rubber pieces sitting just right it's time to place the gear clamp collars back on.

    [​IMG]

    That was the easy part. Now I have to let this wet lumber dry out, and re-install the soffits!

    JW
  4. johnfrwhipple

    johnfrwhipple Bathroom Design & Build - North Vancouver, B.C.

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    Questions.

    I feel like there is a number of potential reasons this happen.

    One I believe that my outside post has settled a good 5/8" and this pulled down the corner of the house. Evidence of this is apperent in my kitchen and I think because the waste line is spray foamed it bent and then snapped at the weakest point.


    I also wonder if it is because I had poor coverage over the bottom side of the waste pipe and perhaps it was a freeze thaw, freeze thaw issue that weaken the ABS pipe.

    I'm shocked at the oouze texture. It's like it became a slim running through the spray foam. I think had the liquids can through as liquids this would have been spotted earlier. Does spray foam mix with water? Weird.

    Any insight would be a help.

    Thanks guys.

    JW
  5. hj

    hj Moderator & Master Plumber Staff Member

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    Rolling the rubbers back and installing the piece is usually the "easy part". Wrapping the bands around and getting the hose clamps lined up, while holding the band closed, can be the difficult part
  6. johnfrwhipple

    johnfrwhipple Bathroom Design & Build - North Vancouver, B.C.

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    Putting the collars back on was easy. Rolling those rubber pieces back and then unfolding them over the old line was the struggle. Just bitching really since the whole repair was done in under thirty minutes. The plumbing side anyway.

    For a 2" line like I installed should there be a flexible connection or expansion leg installed? I'm shocked the pipe just failed like that. The more I ponder the more I think it was the freeze thaw cycle with us using the dishwasher over the winter months.

    JW
  7. dlarrivee

    dlarrivee New Member

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    John, sorry but that spray job is pretty rough.

    The next time you're spraying the underside of a cantilever or soffit with piping in it and there is a warm space ABOVE the piping, you should get your spray foam guy to put foam on either side of the pipe, below the pipe, but not above it...

    This can be achieved various ways...

    I think you're most accurate with the settlement and rigidity provided by encapsulating the entire pipe in foam, causing stress at the coupling.

    How old is the home, is the foam a retrofit or new-construction application?

    (I am a CUFCA certified applicator)
    Last edited: Apr 21, 2012
  8. jadnashua

    jadnashua Retired Defense Industry Engineer xxx

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    ABS's expansion/contraction rate is important on long runs, but if the entire pipe is contstrained, that may have been enough to cause it to break. Throw in a bending stress from a sinking foundation wall, and it makes it worse. As an example, a 20' section of abs with a change in temp of 50-degrees = about 2/3" change in length. The formula is: delta L= (reference) L * constant * delta T, where the constant for ABS = 5.5x10-5. FWIW, the constant for PVC is about 1/2 that of ABS, or 3x10-5. On a really long run, that can make a huge difference. But, you use what's available.

    For those that hear their pipes popping or clicking, you can use the above formula to see how much the pipe expands, then contracts after, say , you run hot bath water down it or empty the DW. The whole pipe doesn't heat up fully unless the flow is high and prolonged, but it definately does make a difference.
  9. johnfrwhipple

    johnfrwhipple Bathroom Design & Build - North Vancouver, B.C.

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    My home is a good seventy years old but we gutted it and added a new story 2 years back. The spray foam was my idea under the cantilevered kitchen addition. Seems like I need some changes going forward. I might break the pipe free of insulation and just use regular batt in this bay.

    I'm so glad my guy noticed it and we caught this sooner than later.

    JW
  10. johnfrwhipple

    johnfrwhipple Bathroom Design & Build - North Vancouver, B.C.

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    Thanks Jim.

    I wonder if I jogged the pipe with a double 45 and and short length if this would help some.

    Perhaps I should remove the ABS and install a copper or cast run???

    JW
  11. jadnashua

    jadnashua Retired Defense Industry Engineer xxx

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    If you foam it back in place...IF that was the cause, the offset probably wouldn't help. If the slope is correct and there's no belly or hump, I doubt it is from freeze/thaw - there should be minimal water in there - not enough unless it was full, to cause enough stress to break the pipe.
  12. dlarrivee

    dlarrivee New Member

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    I think you're absolutely right, it isn't a line full of water on the coldest day of the year...

    John, even wrapping the piping itself in thin fibreglass and spraying foam around it would be fine, a bond breaker if you will.
  13. johnfrwhipple

    johnfrwhipple Bathroom Design & Build - North Vancouver, B.C.

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    I like the bond breaker idea.

    That 2" ABS pipe has a long run to it. Nearly 14' before it drops into the 3" main line.

    I'm also not having such a warm fuzzy feeling about that footing. I think I'm going to add in a solid wall below the kitchen on the East elevation so the weight of the home bears down fully along the foundation footing over 10' instead of just the last 8".

    It never ends.

    Some more pictures of the repair process;


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    JW
    Last edited: Apr 22, 2012
  14. johnfrwhipple

    johnfrwhipple Bathroom Design & Build - North Vancouver, B.C.

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    [​IMG]

    This beam sagged after the first winter session and we installed this extra support beam last spring. I'm glad I left it in since this same beam was taking on water from this leak. A beam designed to stay dry!

    I wonder if I should coat it all with Hydro Ban or Aqua D incase one day we get another slow leak???

    JW
  15. dlarrivee

    dlarrivee New Member

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    What type of beam is that?
  16. johnfrwhipple

    johnfrwhipple Bathroom Design & Build - North Vancouver, B.C.

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    A Paralam Beam
  17. dlarrivee

    dlarrivee New Member

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    So the settlement is to be blamed on poor compaction or?
  18. johnfrwhipple

    johnfrwhipple Bathroom Design & Build - North Vancouver, B.C.

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    I set the footing myself and it was on hard ground. I even watched the soil engineer test it with her ***** stick. I feel that I have perhaps a little excessive ground water run off because of my lot make up and 10 years ago we removed an oil tank about 6 feet from the footing. I fear the footing has drop a little and the Paralam has sagged a little and together they make for one giant pain in the ass.

    My gut tells me to poor two new footings and help out the paralam. Screw the open design and throw some lumber at it. I added another temp support post today out of three 2"x4"'s.

    Time to break out the shovel.... And hand it to David.... LOL :)


    JW

    www.No-Curb.com - my blog site on Barrier Free, No Curb, No Dam and Hobless Showers
    (604) 506-6792 jfrwhipple@gmail.com
    Last edited: Oct 30, 2014
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