Big Labor is here to stay

Discussion in 'Ian's Corner' started by Ian Gills, Feb 22, 2011.

  1. Ian Gills

    Ian Gills Senior Robin Hood Guy

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    At least we should hope it is.

    Banning collective bargaining in the country which claims to be the shining star of democracy wouldn't be right.

    Surely we should salute those American public sector workers who are protesting to maintain their democractic rights?
    Last edited: Feb 22, 2011
  2. jimbo

    jimbo Plumber

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    Well, big labor has certainly been a success in Detroit. Car jobs gone. City broke. Average selling price of a HOUSE in Detroit today : $7,500
    City just announced that it will close HALF of the city schools, with corresponding layoffs. The unions have really done wonders for Detroit!
  3. ballvalve

    ballvalve General Engineering Contractor

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    And you need a BIG gun to survive there.

    The houses are cheap because all their pipes and radiators and wires are on a boat to China.

    Collective bargaining in China? That is when the collective farm workers bid DOWN against each other in order to get a factory job for .26 cents a day with bad rice.

    Probably busting up American cell phones and game boards to make kids lead filled jewelry for the dollar store on a hibachi.

    Look what the Japanese on their little postage stamp island did to us in the 40's. Imagine what happens when the Chinese start looking for a little real-estate.
    Last edited: Feb 24, 2011
  4. Ian Gills

    Ian Gills Senior Robin Hood Guy

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    America could afford high wages if the taxpayers got off their lazy behinds and paid for some decent education for the kids.

    Bad school means bad jobs. Which means bad cars.

    I still think the unions are going to win this one. Let's hope they do.

    You can always blame the other countries and, of course, Reagan who opened up to them.

    But the root cause of America's economic problems are home-grown.

    If gas and carbon energy were taxed; schools Federally funded and healthcare universally provided this country could compete.

    In services and green jobs. Leave the low value stuff to the Chinese.

    I know some of you are rather slow so I will spell it out:

    More private sector jobs will involve more taxes, more regulation and a Bigger Government.

    Take it or leave it.

    And don't be a sucker to the rich who argue that taxes kill American jobs. Just where are these rich Americans and their families going to go? China? I don't think so.

    It's a simple matter of forgetting what your mummy and daddy taught you. That advice was good for another age. But no more...
    Last edited: Feb 24, 2011
  5. jimbo

    jimbo Plumber

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    If you think the green revolution will create lot of jobs, think again. All the municipalities and builders who are doing solar projects are finding out they have to buy the actual solar panels in China, because the cost too much here.!~

    My attitude about all this crap....quote from Bob Dylan, sort of have to be there to feel the full meaning......" I lost all my picnic spirt...gonna stay home...have a picnic in the bathroom"!!!
    Last edited: Feb 24, 2011
  6. Ian Gills

    Ian Gills Senior Robin Hood Guy

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    Solar?

    I'm talking about completely new sources like wind turbines or safer nuclear. And making everything we use more efficient from electric cars to fuel efficient appliances to LED lighting that actually works. California was on to something and then it blew it by doing an about turn.

    America's strength is innovation. Quit trying to make good quality, low value stuff. Who cares if an American-made ball valve lasts a few years longer than a Chinese one? Or every toilet that comes out of the box is in perfect condition.

    Leave the cheap jobs to the cheap people and focus on something you might actually be good at if you can get the kids here to good schools.

    And do more services. Like plumbing.

    It looks like you guys have forgotten how to make jobs. You just moan about taxes and big Government.

    Which all sounds very similar to what you were complaining about 300 years ago.

    Get over it. The English have.

    Big Government is here to stay and you need it to nudge you in the right direction.
    Last edited: Feb 25, 2011
  7. ballvalve

    ballvalve General Engineering Contractor

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    Wisconsin is setting the pace and gave the unions a wake up call! Cheers!
  8. Ian Gills

    Ian Gills Senior Robin Hood Guy

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    What is wrong with a few workers getting together to propose decent wages and more productive work practices?
  9. jimbo

    jimbo Plumber

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    That would be fine! And the last time a UNION did that.......well, a union has NEVER done that!
  10. ballvalve

    ballvalve General Engineering Contractor

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    They have always proposed more money and LESS work. Far less work. More holidays, and "work" when no work exists to be done.
  11. Ian Gills

    Ian Gills Senior Robin Hood Guy

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    What's wrong with ensuring a basic standard of living for workers?

    Without unions there would still be child labor and no pension system.

    Weak unions might be one reason America is in the mess it is now with no paid maternity leave for its women. Or the way most firms are able to fire their workers without any notice and for any reason.

    That's what happens when employers walk over their workers and individuals are not empowered to negotiate with them.

    The only bad thing unions do for this country is prevent the burying of utility lines.

    Which they seem to be pretty good at doing judging by the tangled mess where I live.
    Last edited: Feb 26, 2011
  12. ballvalve

    ballvalve General Engineering Contractor

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    The union would love the boondoggle of burying the lines. However, your plan would drain the earth of its copper and add 20% to supposed global warming due to the vast use of resources and cooling systems needed.

    Also, if you ever worked a excavator in the streets of a city, you would shiver at the prospect of wiring up a large, old town.

    I rather like the idea of Eastern Europe which pumps steam for miles to heat blocks of flats from high efficiency plants that often use waste heat from electric generation to re-warm the water. New York still has many such pipes waiting to blow in the streets.
  13. Ian Gills

    Ian Gills Senior Robin Hood Guy

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    Europe did this when I was a kid in areas much larger and enclosed than you have here.

    So if you don't know how, ask the British.
  14. Cookie

    Cookie .

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    I remember back when I worked doing ironworking, welding, (ornamental) during college and joined the union, everyone was split either way. Some complained about the dues, which I could understand but, it helped us get better pay and working conditions. I remember when I was little and my dad belonged to the Teamsters saying, " you never cross a picket line, it is putting food on our table" and, to this day I won't and instructed my kids never to either. They may not be perfect, some might have too much power, but without unions, you are at the mercy of the owners.
  15. ballvalve

    ballvalve General Engineering Contractor

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    Looks like the Brits can get some work in Brazil after 17 people got barbequed by a power line:

    http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2011/03/01/3151334.htm
  16. Ian Gills

    Ian Gills Senior Robin Hood Guy

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    Utility lines fall all the time where I live in the US.

    They just string 'em back up again and ignore all the damage caused in the interim (by loss of power, cable, phone etc. not to mention cars hitting them).

    People are just too cheap in America to do the job properly.

    Which would consist of burying utility lines in urban and sub-urban areas.
  17. pipehacker

    pipehacker New Member

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    I agree with Ian. To a point. Unions of private sector employees should be permitted to bargain and negotiate all what they want with management. But if they strike, call in sick, or damage property they should be subject to immediate firing and management should get to immediately hire permanent replacements. If the union is right and management will not be able to hire someone who is cheaper, more productive, etc. management will soon learn its lesson and either go out of business or rehire union workers. But if the union is wrong and management can hire better, cheaper, faster nonunion help, why shouldn't it be allowed to do so if the union has gone on strike and quit working?

    Everyone needs to realize that you are only worth what it costs to replace you.

    Re: public sector unions, everything that I have read indicates that public unions receive unrealistic benefits, so some reasonable and affordable cap on the same appears necessary.

    Part of my "Ianistic" attitude towards unions is that I have found much of management, especially public management, to be as incompetent, bueracratic, and corrupt as unions.

    And if a teacher goes on strike during the school year he/she should immediately lose their license to teach and should have their names placed on a child abuse registry..
  18. Ian Gills

    Ian Gills Senior Robin Hood Guy

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    So that's the American dream?

    In England, human beings are regarded to be more than just "animals".

    We value life, society, security and the dignity a job brings.

    One wonders what the churches here are teaching people.

    One thing is for sure. Thomas Jefferson's opening to the Declaration of Independence has not been honored. Since clearly "All men are not created equal".

    Men were not created equal then, and they are not now.

    At least not in America.

    For example, try being born to a mom with no health insurance and see how "equal" you feel compared to the guy in the crib next to you whose mom paid his dues.

    [​IMG]
    Last edited: Feb 28, 2011
  19. jimbo

    jimbo Plumber

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    Check out Frederick Jackon Turner ( Frontier Thesis ) and Manifest Destiny.
  20. Cookie

    Cookie .

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    You could also, compare it to whose mom's had them aborted Ian. Look at China, they select their sex and what happens to the unwanted one? Nothing is ever perfect, and words are just words, actions are what count. Whatever is worth having is worth fighting for, working for, and perfecting. Those words on the piece of paper is just the start it unfortunately, doesn't write it in granite like you think. Solutions come about after many trials and tribulations. I have worked with alot of different kinds of kids. Kids you wouldn't want to meet, you wouldn't love everything they do, and nothing I could do could change it. Some of the parents gave up, some preached and lectured to them, some just stood by not knowing what to do, and in all, time was the answer. In time they went one way or the other. It really isn't much different than the politics in a county, striving to fix what is wrong. If only, every person did their 2 cents worth to make it a better place to live, to leave the world just alittle bit better than when born into it, changes would happen, you would readily, see changes. But, their are too many people whom are afraid to get involved for whatever, reason. So, they stand by until, it affects their life, or their loved ones. I find the answer is so simple and yet, it is one of the most complicated things. It is to care.
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