Best way to replace this shutoff valve? (See photo.)

[Studly]

Hey all you plumbing gods out there, I need some advice. I've done some sweating of copper joints, but not a lot.

I want to replace the shutoff valve shown in the photo below, which leads to our outdoor spigot, with a ball valve. I'd prefer to sweat the new valve on, if I can do it without burning down the house or melting the PVC pipe that goes horizontally across the top elbow.

You'll see the current valve is surrounded by elbows, the bottom one that the valve is touching, and the top one that is in front of a meltable PVC pipe. Would it be best to cut the copper tubing above the valve before the top elbow and use a coupler to put in the new ball valve, or should I heat up and remove that top elbow altogether?

Below the valve, I'm guessing my only option is to heat up and remove the bottom elbow (the joint in back of the bottom elbow doesn't show up well in the photo, but it's about an inch from the wallboard).

So should I replace top elbow to bottom elbow, or cut the tubing and put in a coupling below the top elbow and replace everything down to and including the bottom elbow? Or should I give up the sweating idea and just buy a sharkbite ball valve ?

A few more questions:

* Do those Oatey flame protector cloths work well? Would it keep the PVC pipe (which is about 1/4 inch from the elbow) from melting when I'm working on the top elbow with a propane torch? I'll be replacing another shutoff valve that is virtually touching a bare stud, so would the cloth provide enough protection there, too? Or is there a better option for flame/heat protection?

* As you can see in the photo, the bottom of the valve is touching the elbow. How'd the original plumber do that? I assume that they must have a little 1" piece of 3/4 inch tubing in there that we can't see that connects the valve and bottom elbow is that correct? There's no way to connect a shutoff valve directly to an elbow, is there?

Thanks in advance for any advice you may have!!

 

[hj]

The "anti burn' cloths work quite well, IF you do not direct the flame directly at them. He used a 'street elbow" which goes directly into the valve. Your bigger problem may be to get ALL of the water out of the pipes so you can take them apart. Even a small amount of water will require immense heating and even then they may not loosen.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[Jimbo]

THe foil-faced burn protectirs are quite effective. You can also purchase "cooling gel" products.
Nontheless, that pipe is very close. What is the PVC? Perhaps you can cut is out, then later replace it.

 

[Studly]

Thanks for the replies.

The PVC pipe is a drain pipe, from what I can tell.

I went and bought the elbow and shutoff valve and now I see how the elbow fits right into the ball valve. However, when I compare the size of the new ball valve to the existing gate valve that will be replaced, the ball valve is about 1/2 inch shorter in length than the old valve. So it seems the best thing to do would be to leave the top elbow as is, and cut the tubing a couple inches above the old valve (and that would be a few inches below the PVC pipe), put a coupler in and replace that tubing down to the new ball valve and replace the bottom elbow. Sound like a good plan?

Another question. That shut off valve piping leads into the wall and drops down about 7 feet to the outside spigot. They have a drain on the existing gate valve ... is there any reason that I'd want a drain in the new ball valve when it is up that high? All the water between the shutoff valve and spigot would just trickle down to the spigot anyway, right?

 

[Lburk]

I'm with Jimbo... I'd cut out that PVC line because using a torch that close, even with a bun cloth, you most likely will heat that PVC enough to distort it. I would also take that top 90º face it out, stub in a 3 to 4 inch piece of copper put another 90º on the end of it facing down, extend the bottom piece out with a 90º facing up put the ball valve in between the 90º's. This will give you more room for the future if necessary and it will also make it some what easier to re-install the PVC that was removed.

 

[Studly]

Good ideas. Thanks.

Hmmm, this job is becoming more complicated than I thought. Now I'm thinking that maybe a Sharkbite shutoff valve is the way to go, and those are a bit longer so I could likely use it on the existing vertical tubing that comes down into the shutoff valve. Since it'll be tough to get those pipes and fittings to dry out so I can properly heat and disassemble them, maybe I should just cut out the lower elbow through the existing valve, and replace it with a Sharkbite shut off valve attached to a new lower elbow attached to a Sharkbite coupler.

With my replacement ball valve, should I get one with a drain on it, or is that not necessary? The old one has a drain on it, but I don't see the benefit since it leads to a spigot which is way downstream.

 

[MACPLUMB]

Yes it is call a stop & waste valve so in the winter when you shut the water off at the valve, you can open the little cap and bleed
air into the line though outside faucet, to keep that inside pipe from freezing and splitting open
without the air relief it is just like holding your thumb on the end of a straw, and water will not drain

 

[Ballvalve]

I guess you dont make wine and use a siphon tube much. If its 7 feet lower, unless you keep sucking on the tube, believe me, the water will make its way out.

I'll save you a ton of trouble, even though as you might notice I rather like ballvalves: take the parts back and leave that good quality and repairable valve in place. If it just serves a spigot, what on earth would be the advantage of a ball valve? They are typically NOT repairable,
and if you suppose the flow is too low, run a new line outside from a 1" or 3/4 main line.

Save your energy for something more important.

Below the valve, I'm guessing my only option is to heat up and remove the bottom elbow (the joint in back of the bottom elbow doesn't show up well in the photo, but it's about an inch from the wallboard).

So should I replace top elbow to bottom elbow, or cut the tubing and put in a coupling below the top elbow and replace everything down to and including the bottom elbow? Or should I give up the sweating idea and just buy a sharkbite ball valve ?

I really am surprised why the plumbing gods have yet to ask you WHY? You should leave that nice valve in place and use the money for the ballvalve to buy a good bottle of wine, and thank god that you didnt waste a week melting a drain and disturbing a nice installation.

 

[Studly]

Yes it is call a stop & waste valve so in the winter when you shut the water off at the valve, you can open the little cap and bleed
air into the line though outside faucet, to keep that inside pipe from freezing and splitting open
without the air relief it is just like holding your thumb on the end of a straw, and water will not drain

Thanks for the explanation. That makes sense.

 

[Studly]

If it just serves a spigot, what on earth would be the advantage of a ball valve? ... I really am surprised why the plumbing gods have yet to ask you WHY?

I want to replace the gate valves because they won't close totally w/o a lot of force applied ... drips still come out of the spigot. I may be able to close them fully using a pliers to turn the handle, but you have to force them so much that I'm worried they'd break. Is there a way to fix gate valves that are difficult to close?

 

[TJanak]

To further your question, are there any gate valves that don't leak? I haven't seen any myself and don't know why a person would use one over a ball valve. In principle the gate valve doesn't seem like a reliable seal.

 

[SteveW]

I want to replace the gate valves because they won't close totally w/o a lot of force applied ... drips still come out of the spigot. I may be able to close them fully using a pliers to turn the handle, but you have to force them so much that I'm worried they'd break. Is there a way to fix gate valves that are difficult to close?

Is that really a gate valve?

Have you taken it apart? It looks like a conventional valve with a replaceable rubber washer to me. Could be a very simple fix.

 

[Studly]

Is that really a gate valve?

Have you taken it apart? It looks like a conventional valve with a replaceable rubber washer to me. Could be a very simple fix.

Maybe I'm calling it the wrong thing. I thought all conventional valves like that were called gate valves. I know that when it drips from the handle it could be fixed, but it's very difficult to shut off all the way too. Are there any ways to fix that?

 

[MACPLUMB]

Yes back to square one change out to a ball valve

 

[MTcummins]

If your existing, very awkward location valve is not leaking, leave it there. Cut out a small section on an easily accessible straight run of pipe further back and add an additional ball valve, and leave the old valve alone. There's no need to remove it if its not leaking. This will allow you to shut off the water supply with the ball valve, and open the drain on the old valve. No problems with PVC, other copper, etc.
Don't use sharkbites unless absolutely necessary. Though they claim to never leak, I've seen them do so several times, and one terrible experience one exploded off a line in the middle of a ceiling. Bad news. If you want a cheater method, buy the fittings that have the solder already in them... they're pretty fool proof, just flux and heat it up, it does the rest for you.

Keep it simple, unless otherwise required. Or if you really like to earn your post-work beers...

 

[Ballvalve]

Listen guys, as some of you noted, it is NOT a gate valve. He can remove the stem and change the washer. right there, no solder, no cutting, no hassle. Its a lifetime valve. Its a nibco. I know them well. Someone here with more time can give you the parameters of the SIMPLE fix.

 

[MTcummins]

It is a simple fix to replace the washer, and theoretically that valve can last a lifetime, if you like changing washers all the time. Sometimes the set screws end up seized, then you strip the thing out trying to get it out, etc. I've wasted way too much time with one of my clients who thinks these old things (and the old style faucets, etc) are the only way to go. I've wasted too many hours looking through a million washers and set screws, seats, etc to find the one for the particular shutoff or faucet that's not working, yet again.

I always replace them with ball valves when I'm doing work, or add a ball valve in line as I suggested before. If the shutoff isn't malfunctioning by not holding water, it will leak around the stem, causing even more maintenance. I find it best to either remove those things or leave them open all the time (this seems to avoid stem leaks).

If you're gonna bother messing with it, I'd put in the $5 ball valve and be done with it. You'll be glad you did down the road. To each his own though I guess...