Best way to pump water from Lake?

Discussion in 'Pumps and Tanks Well Forum & Blog' started by Off Grid Mountain Man, Apr 14, 2009.

  1. Off Grid Mountain Man

    Off Grid Mountain Man New Member

    Messages:
    3
    Hello,

    I am trying to figure out how to pump water occasionally from a lake, to a holding tank at my off grid site. I do have access to power using my HondaEU2000i generator.

    I need to pump water from my lake about 100 feet distance and 20 feet up into my holding tank. I would like to get at least 10 gallons a minute.

    The water is basically clear, and clean, there is a slight chance an occasional leaf or grain of dirt or something could be sucked up, but overall, clean clear water.

    I am trying to figure out the most economical way to do this, as my funds are very limited.

    My first plan was to use a 3.5 horsepower, "trash" style pump to do this, as I was given an older one, but it worked for a short time and quit on me - possibly burnt up due to being too much of a lift and distance, or just due to age. (it had sat 10 years with no use)

    So I am thinking my two options are,

    1) get a brand new trash style pump, with more power, I am looking at a 6.5 horsepower one on **** for around $200. I'm sure these cheopo's aren't that high quality, but I only need to pump water occasionally, like once a month or less. The trash pumps I found locally were all over $500.

    2), Since I have a good new generator, use it as a power source, and get some sort of externally powered "sump" style pump, I have seen some on **** for under $50.
    I don't know though if these could do the distance and lift I need. Plus, I already have heavy duty 2" discharge and suction hoses ready for a trash pump
    However, perhaps just a cheap fitting could convert standard garden type hose to work on a pump that would run off my generator? Or would the suction side collapse these?

    Thank you in advance for any opinions, thoughts & suggestions on what might work in my situation!

    AC
  2. speedbump

    speedbump Previous member

    Messages:
    4,540
    Location:
    Riverview, Fl.
    You are going to have a hard time getting any trash pump to prime from 20 feet above the water source. Sump pumps poop out at close to 20 feet, some go a little over 30 but are pumping very small amounts of water. A submersible pump (well pump) in the lake would give you the ten gallons per minute you want and would do it very efficiently. See them here

    bob...
  3. Thatguy

    Thatguy Homeowner

    Messages:
    1,459
    Location:
    MD
    10 gal/min @ 8.3 #/gal = 83 #/min = 1.4 #/sec up 20 ft = 28 ft-lbs/sec = .05 hp. = 37 watts.

    How efficient is the pump/motor combo?
    http://www.mcnallyinstitute.com/06-html/6-01.html

    At 10% efficient you'd need to ship 370w [~1/2 hp] 100' to the lake. At 120v you might get by with #18 AWG.
    Last edited: Apr 14, 2009
  4. Scuba_Dave

    Scuba_Dave Extreme DIY Homeowner

    Messages:
    885
    Location:
    South of Boston, MA
    Are you pulling from your site - 100' away?

    Or are you bringing the pump down near the lake & then pumping up the 20' rise & 100' distance?
  5. Off Grid Mountain Man

    Off Grid Mountain Man New Member

    Messages:
    3
    Are you pulling from your site - 100' away?

    Or are you bringing the pump down near the lake & then pumping up the 20' rise & 100' distance?>>>>>>>>
    __

    Hi,

    I am pumping from the shore of the lake.

    My first attempt at doing this was with a "trash" pump, that pumped about 1000 gallons before the engine quit, but it was an old pump that had sat for 10 years, so I think the engine is all gunked up.

    This was a 3.5 HP trash pump, that I ran a 20 foot long, 2" diameter suction hose into the lake, then ran a 20 foot long dishcharge hose, which I fitted in a regular garden hose to for the final 80 or so feet, and about 20 feet gain in height. It pumped great till the engine quit, which is why I am thinking a 6.5 HP trash pump on **** with 2" fittings, for around $200 might be my cheapest way to go?
    But like my originial question, I am wondering if I can use my genny for power, and just get a seperate pump cheaper?

    Thanks!

    AC
  6. Thatguy

    Thatguy Homeowner

    Messages:
    1,459
    Location:
    MD
    For the minimum setup you need, rent a small electric pump, 0.2 to 1.0 hp, have 100' of garden hose meander from a source up to a 5 gal. can 20' in the air and time how long it takes to fill the can.
    Real world beats theories every time.:D
    Post the video!
  7. bonfis

    bonfis New Member

    Messages:
    7
    Lake Water Pump

    I have a similar situation but without the generator. I pump water from the lakeshore using the smallest Honda gas pump available (don't recall the model #) up 30 feet and fill 2- 50 gallon drums in about 8 mins. Works great as long as the pump is close to the source.
  8. Thatguy

    Thatguy Homeowner

    Messages:
    1,459
    Location:
    MD
    (830 lbs x 30')/480 sec = ~0.1 hp. The Honda GX-25 engine puts out 0.81 kw, 1.1 hp, max. which would put the pump efficiency at 100 (0.1/1.1) = 9%, minimum.

    So 20' would give 0.07 hp and 10 gals/min instead of 13 gives ~0.05 hp.

    These guys
    http://www.hydraulicspneumatics.com/200/Issue/Article/False/21791/Issue
    seem to say that 1 hp gas engine = a 0.4 hp elec. motor for this application, so for the 10 gals/min you could use a 1/5th hp. elec. motor.
    A person can put this much out on an exercise bike. This is real DIY.
    Last edited: Apr 14, 2009
  9. speedbump

    speedbump Previous member

    Messages:
    4,540
    Location:
    Riverview, Fl.
    I can't follow your math, but when you take a 3hp gas pump which is capable of 100 plus gallons per minute and cut it down to a 1/2 - 5/8" garden hose, you have effectively cut off it's arms and legs. Now it's pumping around 5 gpm through the garden hose.

    Forget horsepower, start doing friction loss math. It will be more helpful to you.

    In reality, a 1/2hp jet pump is going to be your best bet. It is the most realistic pump for the job. Check out the SW-50 Jet Pump.

    bob...
  10. Off Grid Mountain Man

    Off Grid Mountain Man New Member

    Messages:
    3
    Thanks for the replies!

    I'm studying them all, and will look into the Jet pumps.

    The math was over my head, and I did not understand the point you were trying to make - but thanks anyway! ; )

    Yes, I imagine I lose a lot of pressure through friction by hooking up a garden hose, but as I have around 100' of distance from my lake, buying that much 2" heavy duty discharge hose would be quite pricey. By using the standard 20' of discharge hose from the trash pump I first tried, and then hooking up 80' of hose, it actually worked great for a while, pumping over 10 gallons a minute which for my needs was fine.

    I'm still lost as to if I am better going with a brand new trash pump, larger, say 6.5 HP, or using my generator and going with some sort of other pump. I am confused on several points, including..

    1) What sort of suction pipe/hose do I need with an externally powered pump, will garden hose work on these? I imagine it varies depending on the pump.

    2) Since I am looking for a rare occasional pumping, to go buy a few hundred dollar well type pump I believe is overkill in my situation - I need a cheap and dirty way to get around 10 gallons a minute.

    I'm still very confused, but I think any and all for all past and future replies, I have a lot of more research to do on this.

    Thanks again!

    AC
  11. Thatguy

    Thatguy Homeowner

    Messages:
    1,459
    Location:
    MD
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2009
  12. speedbump

    speedbump Previous member

    Messages:
    4,540
    Location:
    Riverview, Fl.
    I can tell you a couple of things that may help.
    1. Cheap pumps don't last.
    2. You can't use garden hose for suction line. It flattens out and stops flow.
    3. 6.5 horsepower will not pump any more water through that garden hose than your 3hp did.
    4. Horsepower is not what makes flow or pressure, it's the type of pump and the suction and discharge pipe size that makes it all possible.
    5. Yes you do have a lot more research to do.

    bob...
  13. Thatguy

    Thatguy Homeowner

    Messages:
    1,459
    Location:
    MD
    here's some more, from the USA

    http://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en-us&q="electric drill pump"&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8

    You need an occasional use pump that can deliver at least 10 gals/min at a 20' head, plus overcome the losses in 100' of 1/2" ID pipe. The pump would be at the lake end.

    I'd start with e-mails to pond/waterfall pump makers. Their largest pumps might be up to this task.

    It's $140 for 100' of 1-1/2 pvc pipe, which means your pump would need to have 10 gals/min
    Last edited: Apr 19, 2009
  14. hanlesc

    hanlesc New Member

    Messages:
    5
    Similar Project

    Hi all,

    I have a large pond (2 acres) I want to transfer water from. What do you recommend? Here are some of the factors.

    Total altitude lift is 50 feet from the pond to location
    Total distance is 700 feet
    I want to fill a 1000 gallon tank and speed is not a concern (fill it in less than 2 hours would be good)

    I want the system to be as automated as possible.

    What do ya think?
  15. valveman

    valveman Moderator Staff Member

    Messages:
    4,466
    Location:
    Lubbock, Texas
    A shallow well jet pump with a CSV, small pressure tank, and pressure switch would do it. Then all you need is a float valve at the 1000 gallon tank to make it completely automated.
  16. speedbump

    speedbump Previous member

    Messages:
    4,540
    Location:
    Riverview, Fl.
    Do you have electricity at both ends?
  17. Thatguy

    Thatguy Homeowner

    Messages:
    1,459
    Location:
    MD
    Raising 8300 pounds of water 50' in less than 2 hrs requires more than 0.1 hp, but then you need to overcome the friction of 700' of pipe.
  18. hanlesc

    hanlesc New Member

    Messages:
    5
    Re: Similar Project

    Thanks for the comments all.

    So am I hearing that a 1hp pump would be more than enough? I do indeed have electricity at both ends. I was thinking about getting one of these:

    http://www.pumpsandtanks.com/Pumps/submersible_pumps.htm

    Would you recommend or is it overkill?
  19. Thatguy

    Thatguy Homeowner

    Messages:
    1,459
    Location:
    MD
    You need to translate your 700' of pipe of whatever diameter and material you select into an equivalent additional head height at your desired flow rate.

    This might help
    http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/
  20. WildWildMidwest

    WildWildMidwest New Member

    Messages:
    35
    Location:
    Racine, WI
    I am surprised this thread has grown so long without anybody raising the obvious question: Is it legal? Please consider your state and local ordinances and federal laws before dipping pipes into public waterways. Otherwise, you may be facing fines that exceed your plumbing costs. Federal Clean Water Act fines can be added to state fines if protected wetlands are involved.

    I don't know about your state, but Wisconsin's DNR doesn't tolerate pumping of public waterways onto private land. I've heard the first fine is $500, with escalating fines for repeat occurrences. They prosecute aggressively to raise revenue and discourage pumping behavior. Any backflow can be considered a Clean Water Act violation. I've heard private Wisconsin ponds can be pumped within certain limits provided the pond is completely enclosed by a single property. Pumping across federally mandated drainage lines is especially likely to land you in court and paying attorney fees.

    Be careful... call your DNR office before you do anything involving lakes, ponds or other waterways.
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