Best replacement for well tank

Discussion in 'Pumps and Tanks Well Forum & Blog' started by Rekrap, Feb 10, 2011.

  1. Rekrap

    Rekrap New Member

    Messages:
    3
    Location:
    bernardino, CA
    What type of tank to use,
    This is what I have, a steel hydropneumatic galvanize tank of 525 gal;.that starting to leak. A 220/240 3 phase eletric system
    The well is 120 feet deep, 8" casing, 2 inch pipe, about 95 gpm," 5 HP " sumersible goulds pump.
    The residence has only a mother, 7 children, two bathrooms, sink, john, shower in both, kitchen sink, washing machine,"everyday use", one out door spicket, and lawn.

    In order to save this family money on both the replacement and the cost of electric would it be better to change to a bladder or diafram tank, steel, or fiberglass tanks.
    If the change would be to the bladder tanks, would the bleed off valve 10 feet down the well have to be plugged?
  2. Texas Wellman

    Texas Wellman In the Trades

    Messages:
    537
    Location:
    SE Texas-Coastal
    Sounds like an irrigation well got turned into residential.

    I would think that instead of replacing that big of a tank with another big tank it would be more economical to install a smaller HP sub pump like a .5 or 1 HP 10 gallon per minute pump. Then add a 10-20 gallon draw-down bladder tank. Of course you would have to have the means to pull the 5 horsepower pump, probably set on 2" galv. pipe.

    I'm sure valveman will chime in here but I think a CSV (cycle stop valve) can be used to throttle the output of the pump back but it will be expensive. You will probably end up spending almost as much for the CSV and new tank as you would replacing the old pump with a new smaller pump and new smaller tank....
  3. LLigetfa

    LLigetfa DIYer, not in the trades

    Messages:
    4,049
    Location:
    NW Ontario, Canada
    With a bladder or diaphram, there would be no air volume control so yes, you would want to get rid of the bleeder.
  4. valveman

    valveman Moderator Staff Member

    Messages:
    4,479
    Location:
    Lubbock, Texas
    If you are not going to need the 95 GPM for irrigation or something else, then I agree with TW that changing to a smaller pump would be a good idea. The smaller pump can use a smaller 44 gallon tank ($300). Or it can even be as small as 4.4 gallon size tank ($75) if used with a CSV ($200).

    However, buying a new pump now ($1,000?) will be more expensive than just replacing the tank. And yes if you switch to bladder tanks you may need to remove the bleeder orifice as Lligetfa suggested.

    If you never use more than 25 GPM, which I doubt, you can use a CSV1Z with a 3 GPM minimum for the 5 HP pump. You may still need to remove the bleeder but, with the CSV you can replace the big tank with as small as a 44 gallon size tank. CSV ($200) and a 44 gallon tank ($300).

    If you remove the above ground check valve while installing the 44 gallon tank and CSV, the bleeder in the well should stay closed and may not have to be removed. If it is a rubber bleeder, the back pressure from the CSV may pop it out, then you will have to lift the pump and plug the hole (service call $?). If it is a brass bleeder and is still good, you should not have to pull the pump up to plug anything (no service call $0). But you won’t know until you try it.

    In this way the tank and CSV will also work with a smaller pump, when the time comes to replace the 5 HP.

    CSV’s are not expensive. Even if you want to still be able to use the 95 GPM, you would only need a 2” CSV ($900) and a single 80 gallon bladder tank ($500). Some people might think the 2” CSV is expensive at $900, but without it you would need at least four 80 gallon pressure tanks ($2,000), or three 119 gallon bladder tanks ($2400), or replace the 525 galv tank ($3,000?). Even then all those big tanks will not do as good a job as the CSV and one tank.

    No matter the size of CSV needed, it always more than offsets its cost by using a much smaller pressure tank. There are other benefits to the CSV as well, like variable flow rates, eliminating water hammer, delivering constant pressure, and eliminating cycling, which makes the pump last much longer.

    To see how the CSV works see this link.
    http://www.cyclestopvalves.com/index2.html
  5. LLigetfa

    LLigetfa DIYer, not in the trades

    Messages:
    4,049
    Location:
    NW Ontario, Canada
    If you went with the CSV and choose a tank with an air volume control instead of a bladder or diaphram type, you could keep the existing snifter/bleeder/checkvalve if pulling up the pump and redoing the plumbing to remove it is cost prohibitive.
  6. Rekrap

    Rekrap New Member

    Messages:
    3
    Location:
    bernardino, CA
    Texas Wellman
    Liligrtfa
    Valveman/

    Gentlemen;
    You hit the nail on the head with, "Sounds like an irrigation well turned into residential.

    My daughters husband went to Heaven (I think) several years ago, and now there is no need for the irrigation.

    She cannot afford to do that anymore, I am pushing 85 down the line, but thanks to God I am still able to do what needed to be done for her.
    I have no problem in pulling the pump ( but would rather not) and remove the old galvanized steel tank out of the pump house with a replacement.

    So with all your information I have to make up my mind as to just which way to go.

    What I should have mention was that the present pump and rubber bleed off valve was replaced two years ago, so I feel that is is still fairly new.
    The 2" pipe from the pump was replaced 7 years ago with plastic? / PVC? well pipe.

    Lligetfa, mention the air volume tank, is that the same as the one I have at present ?but a smaller size with the CSV, is so, what size tank would you recomend
    Many many thanks to y'al
  7. LLigetfa

    LLigetfa DIYer, not in the trades

    Messages:
    4,049
    Location:
    NW Ontario, Canada
    I assume there is a snifter valve to go with the bleeder.

    Based on valveman's advice, the rubber bleeder would not withstand the higher hold-back pressure the CSV would exert on it. If you keep the bleeder you will need a large tank with air volume control to reduce cycling. Your existing tank would, in all likelyhood have an air volume control to vent off the air drawn into the line by the snifter/bleeder setup. Bladder/diaphram precharge tanks don't require a snifter to introduce air.

    The other purpose for a snifter/bleeder is to drain down the line to prevent freezing if lines are not buried deep enough.
  8. Texas Wellman

    Texas Wellman In the Trades

    Messages:
    537
    Location:
    SE Texas-Coastal
    Based on what you've told me I believe that the best thing is to replace the 5-HP with a much more suited .5 - 1 HP submersible pump. No matter what you try you are still going to have to deal with that beast of a pump doing a job it's not designed for. even with a 500 gallon tank I don't think that pump could run long enough to keep it from cycling and starting that beast has got to pad the electric bill somewhat.

    Since you're galv. tank is already leaking I would definitely go with a good bladder tank and keep the metal connections down to a minimum and try to use all pvc or non-metallic fittings unless it's brass or stainless.

    Have you gotten any bids or do you plan to do the work yourself? Be careful, without the proper equipment things could get ugly in a hurry. Using a back-hoe or front end loader to pull a well can be a tricky proposition at best.


  9. justwater

    justwater Well Drilling/Service

    Messages:
    327
    Location:
    FL/GA
    especially if it is actually installed with pvc pipe. you can manhandle steel with chains and whatever and pull it up a couple feet at a time, but if its pvc.. you cant handle it the same way. it will definitely be lighter, probably not light enough to attempt by hand. if you couldnt pull 20' of pipe in one shot with something, i wouldnt attempt it. last thing u want it to break the pvc and that big boy fall to the bottom..
    Last edited: Feb 16, 2011
  10. Gary Slusser

    Gary Slusser That's all folks!

  11. justwater

    justwater Well Drilling/Service

    Messages:
    327
    Location:
    FL/GA
    yep, GS is right. they make a tool for any job. not sure how much they would charge for one, but anything is available for a price, and you still have to pull it up.. i'd guess by the time you bought all the "proper" tools to get it out safely, you coulda been done paid someone or traded the work for the pipe and pump.. then u could install the new. id hate so hear something happened and u dropped a 5hp pump down a well.. on pvc, which would make it 5 times harder to fish. but this is a DIY site.. and its not impossible.
  12. Gary Slusser

    Gary Slusser That's all folks!

    Replacing this 5 hp pump is the right thing to do all around.

    Since the pump and PVC are only 2 years old, I suspect he could sell the pump, PVC and probably the cable fairly easily and use some of the money (he could post it on the BB in the local pump/plumbing supply houses and weekly/monthly Penny Saver paper/Craig's list etc. free of charge) for the pipe vice to get it out of the well and the new 2 wire 1/2 hp 10-13 gpm pump needed for a 2 bathroom house and some 12/3 flat ribbon cable and a roll of PE pipe and a couple fittings and hose clamps (all bought online) and a new 'bladder' type pressure tank and give his daughter the rest of the money.

    He sounds handy and I bet he can figure out how to get this pump out of the well. Since it is only 2 yrs old, I wouldn't trade it to someone just for pulling it.
  13. justwater

    justwater Well Drilling/Service

    Messages:
    327
    Location:
    FL/GA
    all around best choice is getting it out and replacing with proper size, i wont argue that. i missed that the pump was only 2yrs old.. i dunno, itd be his call.. i think i'm with u, i wouldnt wanna trade equipment that new just to get it out.. but some might. before i did anything, i might contact the guy that put it in and see if he'd be willing to work some kind of deal. and OP does sound like a handy fella, and can probably find a way to get it out.. maybe even without the vice. if he chooses to tackle it, i just hope he takes his time and is careful.
  14. Gary Slusser

    Gary Slusser That's all folks!

    So give him some hints on how to do it. I've seen guys on here that built tripods, used backhoes etc.. What he needs is a way to grip the PVC so he doesn't drop or damage it while undoing the couplers.
  15. justwater

    justwater Well Drilling/Service

    Messages:
    327
    Location:
    FL/GA
    why do I gotta give hints? I've never even heard of a 5hp hung on 2" PVC.

    u dont need to grip the pipe if u are planning on "undoing" it at the couplers. ud just build a pair of homemade elevators (notched blocks of wood, torch-notched steel plate, etc) and pull it out in 20' sections, resting and securing each coupler on an elevator. it's on him to brainstorm and find out how he could pull 20' joints up with whatever material or equipment he has access to. i already said this would be the only way i would attempt it. anything beyond that,.. u give him some hints.

    somebody smarter than me do some math and figure out about how much this would weigh. 5hp pump on 120' 2" PVC .. full of water.
  16. Texas Wellman

    Texas Wellman In the Trades

    Messages:
    537
    Location:
    SE Texas-Coastal
    I think (going off memory) 2" has about .2 gallons per foot.....and 8.3 lbs per gallon of water...plus the weight of the pipe....

    200 lbs just for the water in the pipe. I don't know what 2" pvc weighs off-hand.

    One way to do it is get two good vises. Pull a few feet at at a time with whatever means you have...chain hoist, loader, etc. Set the vise, pull 2-5 feet using the vise as your "grip", set another vise at the bottom, and then hacksaw or cut the part you just pulled up. Of course, you would render the PVC useless and be unable to recoup any of the cost by re-selling it.

    I seriously doubt the pump is hung on PVC.....would be a first for me. Maybe the top coming out of the Tee is pvc but I'd bet the rest in the well is steel....and then all bets are off.

    My mousepad chart here shows steel 2" threaded and coupled to weigh 3.68 lbs/foot.
  17. justwater

    justwater Well Drilling/Service

    Messages:
    327
    Location:
    FL/GA
    i surfed around a little.. ??? cant verify the sites but itll get us close i guess.

    http://www.deh.enr.state.nc.us/osww_new/new1/images/PVC_Size_Volume.PDF
    http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/pvc-cpvc-pipes-dimensions-d_795.html

    according to the first site, its a little over 150lbs of water for 2" sch. 80
    according to the second, 120' of 2" sch. 80 weighs about 115lbs.
    figure another rough 80lbs for the pump and motor.
    dont know water level so we wont even toss it in the mix, head hurts already.

    we'll say roughly 350-365lbs total.. if it is set on 2" sch. 80
  18. Gary Slusser

    Gary Slusser That's all folks!

    'cuz it's the right thing to do and DIY forums require hints. Me neither but some drillers and pump guys do their own thing, remember? Plus, different regions/areas do too.

    http://www.tridenttool.com/detail.aspx?ID=265

    There ya go, now you are giving back and should feel good helping others. But he does need to grip the pipe unless he can pull 20' in one pull, which is doubtful but...

    OK, http://www.tridenttool.com/detail.aspx?ID=265
  19. justwater

    justwater Well Drilling/Service

    Messages:
    327
    Location:
    FL/GA
    what else u know about that pipe holder? up to 2".. will it allow for couplings?.. what if they are extra thick couplings? if so, only 200$ into it so far.. and he still has to safely pull it. few more hundred and he might have some half descent tools to complete this one-time job. I guess "being as how this is a DIY forum".. it doesn't matter what it costs, so long as u can do it yourself.
  20. Gary Slusser

    Gary Slusser That's all folks!

    I don't know but a quick tollfree phone call to Campbell and/or Trident would answer the questions he might have about any type pump vice. Or he could stop in and ask his local pump supply house.

    Anyway, you're losing the good feeling of giving back and you're falling back into fearing his effort might cause a problem or that he might have to spend a few bucks but.... it is not our place to spend the OP's money for them by insisting that they do or don't do this'er that and shaming or scaring them into our way of thinking.

    Most real men, the not yet feminized types, love a project and to solve seemingly impossible problems like lifting 350 lbs up out of a well to save calling a driller etc. and paying maybe $1000+ to do the lifting for them 'cuz some driller says they can't or shouldn't try doing it themselves.

    What do you suppose he could sell the 2 yr old 5 hp pump, any controller, cable and 2" PVC for? My guess is maybe a thousand?

    Would you give me $200 if I gave you a $1000. You know you would. And he could sell the pipe vice for say $50. That puts him ahead by $850, which should get his widowed daughter most of a new pump, 130' of 12/3 cable and PE drop pipe. So how about a drawing of your homemade 'elevators' so he could save that $200 or most of it?
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