Best Pump? Torque Arrestors or Not? PVC vs Galvanized? I Need Some EXPERT Advice!

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RogerPDX

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Valveman -
I read the link you posted. Thanks very much. Very informative. Can you please help me understand the following parrt of your post?:

"Using a Cycle Stop Valve on your pump system dramatically reduces the number of times your pump cycles, which will increase the life of the check valve and all other components in the system. The Cycle Stop Valve is also in the 1 GPM position, not fully open, when the pump shuts off. This means that the check valve is also only open to 1 GPM, which is only the width of a piece of paper, not fully open, when the pump shuts off. This means that the few times that the Cycle Stop Valve allows the pump to cycle, the check valve does a nice gentle close, which eliminates water hammer and check valve failure."

What is a CSV? If it is set for 1 GPM, how does that effect the pump which is rated at 5 GPM?
 

Justwater

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you don't need to worry about a csv if there is no tank, pressure switch, etc. its just a pump in a well periodically filling a holding tank. for this application, i see no difference whether there is no check valve or multiple check valves.. other than the cost.
 

Craigpump

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I agree with just water, there is no reason to have multiple check valves on your installation.
 

Valveman

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JW is right that you don’t need a CSV for a 5 GPM pump that just fills a cistern. But a CSV would be a beneficial addition to the booster pump/pressure tank system that supplies the house.

Years ago we never installed check valves on irrigation pumps around here in the cotton fields. That way the pipe would drain back and nothing would freeze over the winter. These pump where started maybe three times a year, and then left running for months at a time. So we didn’t think check valves were important. When you shut off the power to a 5HP or a 30HP, they would really spin back fast. Over the years we realized this was hard on the motor thrust bearings.

Occasionally a contactor would stick or someone would turn the pump back on before it had stopped spinning backwards. This would nearly always break the pump shaft.

Later we started drilling holes in check valves so the pipe could still drain back, but it wouldn’t flow backwards fast enough to spin the pump/motor. They even make flapper style valves that leak back a certain rate just for these application.

With a low producing well you want a check valve on the pump. Without a check valve some times the well will be pumped dry before the pipe is refilled. At the very least it reduces the amount you can draw from the well each time.

But even with a 5 GPM pump that is only filling a cistern, multiple check valves are still not a good idea. As long as all of them are working perfectly you won’t see a problem. But when there is a small leak back the upper most check is holding a negative pressure in the pipe, just like holding your finger over a straw full of tea. Then on pump start, the bottom section of water hits the upper check valve with tremendous force. Since water hammer like this can cause a shock wave 10 times stronger than the pump can even produce, the bottom sections of pipe may see spikes of hundreds of pounds of pressure. And it can also shatter a thrust bearing.

One check valve on the pump will not cause a negative pressure. Filling the cistern from the top leaves and air gap. That way it can’t drain the cistern down the well if the check valve does break or you get a hole in the pipe.
 

RogerPDX

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I'm pretty clear on the overkill with multiple check valves. Thanks for all who contributed on that issue.

I am not clear however, on straight PVC SCH 120 pipe - with SS or Brass connectors, vs Bell End PVC SCH 120 pipe.

I would think that the bell ends might be a better - longer lasting fit, if the pump guys have to thread the straight pipes, taking some of the thickness away from the pipe, etc. Does PVC get brittle down in the well after some years? Is that a concern? If I could, I'd hire someone who installs Poly, but nobody around here is set up for it.
 

LLigetfa

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If I could, I'd hire someone who installs Poly, but nobody around here is set up for it.

I would never put poly in a rock bore. It has a memory and will never straighten out, sure to chafe against the rock.

Isn't the PVC pipe factory threaded?
 

RogerPDX

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I'm in the final throws of choosing the pump guy and thought of something this afternoon...

Today, the pump was "trying" to get water up the pipe and into my cistern, but after 7 minutes
I shut the pump off. I could hear it gurgling to begin with, then silence. When I flipped
the switch, ?I could hear gurgling again - like the water was running back down the pipe.

Could this be a power problem coming from the control box? W-a-y cheaper fix if it was
the control box...
 

RogerPDX

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Today we put a probe down the well to see where the static level of the water is.

Originally, in 1978 when we drilled the well - the driller hit a little spray of water
at 150'. We kept drilling and stopped at 386'.

The only time water came into the hole, was at 150'. It's been a poor well, but
we can live on the 250 gals it historically has made - every 24hrs.

Today the probe did not beep until it was down to 214'.

I have not pumped a drop since last Sunday, so I would think that the water level should be
at the 150' mark. Is this correct - if the well is still producing water?

Sunday the we pump couldn't pump anything up and I figured that the pump is just on
its last leg and / or the pipe is full of holes / or both.

Can anybody please explain their thoughts on this water level being lower than it should be...

or should it be?

Thanks.
 

Craigpump

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That little fracture is either depleted or silted up and not allowing the water to get to the well.

I would strongly suggest having the well hydrofraced, if you can find someone who has a set of packers and will do zone fracing it might be worth the additional expense.
 

Craigpump

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Most guys who do zone fracking around here set the packers up so that they are fracking 40' zones and start at the bottom and work their way out of the well. We've see wells go from 1/4 gpm to 5+ gpm, that doesn't happen on every job, but the potential is certainly there.

Single packer works good, but you really don't have control over where the water goes like you do with zone fracking.
 

RogerPDX

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Is using a baler a good method of actually determining if the well is dry or just slow (plugged up)?

Do you guys ever use a cable to lower a piece of pipe with a flap valve in the end (knowing the gallon capacity of the pipe) as a method of removing some water from the hole and then measure the SWL to see if it returns to the 214 ft. level?

If the level does not recover to the 214' mark, it would seem that the well is out of water or the casing slots are blocked with minerals or mud.

Historically my well will make about 10 gals in an hour, so we could figure this out within an hour...

My suspicions come to play because the SWL should be around 150' - not 214'. To me, that says dry hole, and we have used part of this supply prior to the pump pooping out. Does that seem logical?

So I go back to fracking - If it is dry "or" plugged up - will fracking the hole open that original fracture up, or once they are dry - forget it?

If we never hit another spray of water when originally drilling the well in 1978, do you think fracking would help discover more/new veins?
 

Craigpump

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Casing slots? I was under the impression that this well is drilled into bedrock and therefore open hole.

The kind of fracking we are talking about (3000 psi max) wont create new fractures, the rock is just too dense, but that pressure will force water back into most fractures. The more water that is pumped in, the greater the extension from the well which increases the chances of a more successful the frack job.
 

RogerPDX

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Sorry, I didn't mean casing slots - I meant original rock fractures.

If the hole is actually dry, today, will hydro fracking actually open up the old
fractures so they produce water now - today? 3000psi doesn't seem all that
strong to me, when we are talking rock...
 

Craigpump

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If there is water in the fractures around the well, a properly done hydro frac will clean out those fractures and increase the yield of the well 95% of the time. In fact, we have seen the best success ratio when the well doesn't make much water to begin with.

3000 psi may not sound like much, but multiply that times the area of the well and you have a force that will move 85,000 pounds.
 

RogerPDX

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Craigpump - We probed the well again today... water is at 198'
It was at 214' on Friday.
Last time it was pumped was Sunday the 18th.

I had a well guy tell me today that even though that is not the original 150'
SWL, and it's been slow to recover - that he's seen wells that do this that pump
a lot of water anyway.
Sounds screwy to me.

I talked to one fracker who is interested. The other on is not interested.
Are you familiar with the type of rock that fracks well and the types that are
a waste of time & money to attempt?

I have looked for a frackers forum, but have not found one.
 
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