Best option for spa wiring

[Alectrician]

No kidding. 680.42(A)(1) overrides that.

What the code giveth in one place it taketh away in another.
Sorry, you don't get to choose which one you want.

With conflicting code, how do you determine which is superior? I always wonder about that.

Another big issue with this whole stripping NM in conduit is the insulated ground factor for a spa or pool. Once the circuit leaves the structure the ground MUST be insulated.

a) Is the deck a part of the structure?

b) I never strip the sheathing. I dont like to remove ANY protection. I KNOW....it's still not an insulated ground, that's not my point. I was just pointing out that when I sleeve NM, I leave the sheathing intact.

 

[Verdeboy]

This whole thread is about following the "code" to the letter vs. not following it to the letter.

What's missing in this argument is why it is safer or better to do it one way vs. the other. If a few feet of NM cable is sleeved outside, how is this going to cause the house to burn down, as one poster put it?

I, for one, think that blindly and unquestioningly following the rules is very dangerous. It's much better to use the code book as a guide, and to question everything. You just may be smarter than the folks who came up with the codes.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[restorick]

This whole thread is about following the "code" to the letter vs. not following it to the letter.

What's missing in this argument is why it is safer or better to do it one way vs. the other. If a few feet of NM cable is sleeved outside, how is this going to cause the house to burn down, as one poster put it?

I, for one, think that blindly and unquestioningly following the rules is very dangerous. It's much better to use the code book as a guide, and to question everything. You just may be smarter than the folks who came up with the codes.

Actually, this whole thread is not about following the code to the letter. It was to solicit feedback on how to solve my problem.

Personally, I don't care about why I can use NM sleeved outside - I just ain't gonna do it. And, if licensed electricians are advocating doing something that isn't compliant, then I personally don't think a whole lot for their approach.

Professionals don't cut corners - they do things right. And they charge a fair price for being a pro. I'm not a pro electrician, just a damned good amateur.

Bottom line - I guess it all depends on your comfort level with the "workaround".

In my case, I wouldn't do it because I would not be comfy knowing that I don't have something up to code. Doesn't matter if it never blows up and burns down my house, I just would never take that chance with my family or my property.

In the case of a real electrician, I would think they would be afraid of 2 things:

1. Fear that the non-compliant work will cause something bad to happen, and
2. Fear that they could lose their business, their house and anything else I can get my arms around when I sue their ass off

Besides, don't most electricians charge by the hour? Or at the very least, isn't there some sort of magic manual that tells them how much time to allocate to a job? I would think it would be like a car mechanic, where the little black book shows you charge 4.5 hours to replace a transmission, but you know you can get it done in 2. You either double your paycheck, or you hit the links early.

As for your contention that blindly following the rules is dangerous, well then I guess you're either a product of the 60s or someone who has no regard for the laws of physics. And if you think you're smarter than the scores of engineers who came up with the code, by all means have at it. I'll be reading about you winning a Darwin award someday.

</soapbox mode off>

Rick (not a licensed electrician, but a damned good amateur)

 

[restorick]

With conflicting code, how do you determine which is superior? I always wonder about that.

As stated directly in the code - you need to follow the other sections of the code, except where the code is overidden by section 680.

a) Is the deck a part of the structure?

Yes, my deck is attached to the house.

Rick

 

[Alectrician]

1. I have never been afraid of anything really and the older I get, the more confident I become. I believe in myself and my abilities to make sound decisions.

2. There is no doubt that I am smarter than some of the code writing brainiacs. What they seem to lack is a simple mecanical background.

Read some of the conflicting and/or poorly written code and you will understand what I'm talking about.


In my opinion, if you are really concerned about your property and want a quality installation, find a good contractor. I don't think I've EVER seen a homeowner do good work. They don't have the tools or the complete understanding to pull it off.

Finding a good contractor will be the challange. There are millions of compliant installations that are sub standard.

 

[Alectrician]

As stated directly in the code - you need to follow the other sections of the code, except where the code is overidden by section 680.

I can't find the part where it says it was "overidden".

Yes, my deck is attached to the house.

What kind of decking? Plank or solid plywood?

 

[JWelectric]

Read some of the conflicting and/or poorly written code and you will understand what I'm talking about.

The code does not conflict itself it modifies itself.

90.3 Code Arrangement.
This Code is divided into the introduction and nine chapters, as shown in Figure 90.3. Chapters 1, 2, 3, and 4 apply generally; Chapters 5, 6, and 7 apply to special occupancies, special equipment, or other special conditions. These latter chapters supplement or modify the general rules. Chapters 1 through 4 apply except as amended by Chapters 5, 6, and 7 for the particular conditions.

So I guess if you don’t understand how to read the code then this next statement goes out the window.

2There is no doubt that I am smarter than some of the code writing brainiacs. What they seem to lack is a simple mecanical background.

I can't find the part where it says it was "overidden".

Which code cycle do you have?
93 cycle see page 70-2,
96 cycle see page 70-22,
99 cycle see page 70-17,
02 cycle see page 70-30,
05 cycle see page 70-24
and if you have sprung for an 08 look on page 70-22

 

[restorick]

1. I have never been afraid of anything really and the older I get, the more confident I become. I believe in myself and my abilities to make sound decisions.

2. There is no doubt that I am smarter than some of the code writing brainiacs. What they seem to lack is a simple mecanical background.

Read some of the conflicting and/or poorly written code and you will understand what I'm talking about.


In my opinion, if you are really concerned about your property and want a quality installation, find a good contractor. I don't think I've EVER seen a homeowner do good work. They don't have the tools or the complete understanding to pull it off.

Finding a good contractor will be the challange. There are millions of compliant installations that are sub standard.

I guess we'll agree to disagree. If you're comfortable installing non compliant projects, so be it. If the day comes when it comes back to bite you, you'll understand why the code was there.

The best analogy I can think of is the tax code. A lot of it is bull, but if you don't play by the rules, eventually it will bite you. Who cares if you are smarter than the brainiacs - at the end of the day it's their ballgame.

As for a "homeowner" doing good work (or not), well you can swing by and take a peek at my install anytime and judge for yourself.

Finally - your assertion that there are millions of compliant installations that are sub standard - I guess that could be true, as the code as I understand it is meant to provide the minimum acceptable requirements for an application.

Rick

 

[restorick]

I can't find the part where it says it was "overidden".

680.42 Outdoor Installations. Electrical installations for outdoor spas or hot tubs must comply with Parts I and II of this article, except as permitted in the following:

(A) Flexible Connections. Listed packaged spa or hot tub equipment assemblies or self-contained spas or hot tubs are permitted to use flexible connections as follows:

(1) Flexible Conduit. Liquidtight flexible metal conduit or liquidtight flexible nonmetallic conduit in lengths of not more than 6 ft.

(2) Cord-and-Plug Connections. Cord-and-plug connections with a GFCI-protected cord that is not longer than 15 ft.​

What kind of decking? Plank or solid plywood?

Hardwood deck. Deck is raised 9' off ground level using treated post and beam construction and attached to house with treated ledger.

Rick

 

[Alectrician]

Hardwood deck. Deck is raised 9' off ground level using treated post and beam construction and attached to house with treated ledger.

So it is plank style hardwood? I was thinking that if was a solid deck it may not be a wet location, allowing the NM under it. Sounds like no.


And it IS a lot like the IRS as is my opinion and method of dealing with it. Yes, I have and will continue to occaisionally cash checks and not claim it as income. I live a very modest lifestyle and I pay about 50/60K a year, That is PLENTY. If I get ahold of a tax free hundred dollar bill it makes my day



JW !! Where have YOU been? I missed you

 

[Verdeboy]

As for your contention that blindly following the rules is dangerous, well then I guess you're either a product of the 60s or someone who has no regard for the laws of physics.

????????????

What do the laws of physics have to do with blindly following laws, rules, and codes? I hate to beat a dead horse, but wasn't it perfectly legal to own slaves and to kill the indigenous people right here in the good ol' US of A?

Beating your kids and wife was also a legal act until fairly recently in our history. Not questioning those things was dangerous.

Here's another angle:

A Medical Doctor goes to school for umpteen years before he/she can practice. I know very little about medicine. I do know my own body and, over the years, I have thrown out more prescriptions than I have filled . Some of these prescriptions would have killed me.

Moral of that story: My brain and intuition are at least as important as all the medical background in the world.

You might have the best code book in the world, but it can NEVER address every possible situation. That's where your brain and common sense comes in.

 

[Chris75]

You might have the best code book in the world, but it can NEVER address every possible situation. That's where your brain and common sense comes in.

Yet, you can still not do the job until it meets code... The NEC is MINIMAL requirements to meet a certain safety level, if you feel the need to go BEYOND this, you can...

 

[Alectrician]

your assertion that there are millions of compliant installations that are sub standard - I guess that could be true,

COULD be true? It's true. I work with this crap every single day.....unless I'm wasting time on the internet.

Some of the worst violators are actually in brand new commercial wiring. It's a relatively new method. They do a take off from blueprints and pre make everything the can in a shop using MC and labor that only knows blk to blk, wht to wht. The installation and makeup, while legal, is horrible.

Just because it's to code doesn't make it right. Just because it's a violation doesn't make it wrong.

 

[restorick]

????????????

What do the laws of physics have to do with blindly following laws, rules, and codes? I hate to beat a dead horse, but wasn't it perfectly legal to own slaves and to kill the indigenous people right here in the good ol' US of A?
Beating your kids and wife was also a legal act until fairly recently in our history. Not questioning those things was dangerous.

We're not debating slavery or child/spousal abuse, we're talking about a set of codes that have been the de facto minimum standard for many years. Perhaps you need to clarify your original statement - are you advocating using the code as a "guideline" and using your intuition to adjust as you see fit?

Here's another angle:

A Medical Doctor goes to school for umpteen years before he/she can practice. I know very little about medicine. I do know my own body and, over the years, I have thrown out more prescriptions than I have filled . Some of these prescriptions would have killed me.

Moral of that story: My brain and intuition are at least as important as all the medical background in the world.

I don't know the context of your situation, so I don't know how to respond to that. All I can say is that I don't understand how it relates.

You might have the best code book in the world, but it can NEVER address every possible situation. That's where your brain and common sense comes in.

OK, I'll buy that. But give me a real world example of where you believe the code is flawed in my situation and what you would do differently. I don't mean flawed from the standpoint of you can do better than the code, but flawed from the standpoint that following the code would put someone or something in danger.

Rick

 

[Alectrician]

Refrigerator or freezer nuisance trips a required AFCI (it will happen), food gets above the 40 degree safety limit before the fault is corrected , family eats food and dies.





Now give me one where the sleeved NM kills someone



Edit. I missed "in MY situation". It's not flawed in your situation. It just requires an extra set of splices. . Faults are more likely in splices/terminations so it slightly increases the chance of failure. No big thing.

Oh ...here's one. Spa doesn't work. Electrician has to check splices at JB under deck and bumps his head rendering him unconscious. Then wolves move in and drag his carcass back to their den.

 

[restorick]

Edit. I missed "in MY situation". It's not flawed in your situation. It just requires an extra set of splices. . Faults are more likely in splices/terminations so it slightly increases the chance of failure. No big thing.

Oh ...here's one. Spa doesn't work. Electrician has to check splices at JB under deck and bumps his head rendering him unconscious. Then wolves move in and drag his carcass back to their den.

Except, in this case, the electrician would have to be the tallest man in the world. My deck is 9' above ground...

Rick

 

[Verdeboy]

But give me a real world example of where you believe the code is flawed in my situation and what you would do differently. I don't mean flawed from the standpoint of you can do better than the code, but flawed from the standpoint that following the code would put someone or something in danger.Rick

I was making a philosophical point that relates to all codes, rules, and laws. But Alectrician said it simpler and better:

"Just because it's to code doesn't make it right. Just because it's a violation doesn't make it wrong."

He is talking about a higher form of "right" and "wrong". He is touching on a subject near and dear to me called the philosophy of the Tao, which, as you may know, is an ancient Chinese philosophy.

Generally speaking, what we consider "right" and "lawful" is only "right" and "lawful" because one person or a bunch of people with power have agreed to make it "right" and "lawful". The code, in your instance, may be perfectly adequate and safe. I just think that turning any code book into a "Bible" and taking every word literally without question, is not healthy.

 

[Cwhyu2]

????????????

What do the laws of physics have to do with blindly following laws, rules, and codes? I hate to beat a dead horse, but wasn't it perfectly legal to own slaves and to kill the indigenous people right here in the good ol' US of A?
Beating your kids and wife was also a legal act until fairly recently in our history. Not questioning those things was dangerous.

Here's another angle:

A Medical Doctor goes to school for umpteen years before he/she can practice. I know very little about medicine. I do know my own body and, over the years, I have thrown out more prescriptions than I have filled . Some of these prescriptions would have killed me.

Moral of that story: My brain and intuition are at least as important as all the medical background in the world.

You might have the best code book in the world, but it can NEVER address every possible situation. That's where your brain and common sense comes in.

thank Ver Ihave been to Dr to much sick of what she tells me.

 

[Alectrician]

Except, in this case, the electrician would have to be the tallest man in the world. My deck is 9' above ground...

Even worse...he (or you) fall off ladder on sloped terrain trying to service install required Jbox !!

 

[Alectrician]

Verdeboy is my brother from another mother.