Benefit of Toto cyclone flushing?

[uscpsycho]

Question about Toto's toilets with cyclone flushing. Everything on Toto's website suggests that the benefit of this feature is to help to keep the bowl clean. They don't ever specifically say that this flushing system provides better sucking performance to help prevent clogging.

Does Toto's cyclone flushing system provide stronger sucking action or is it designed to help keep waste from sticking to the bowl?

Thanks!

 

[Terry]

The Drake II with cyclone flush moves 800 grams. That's smoking!!
Anything 500 grams or more is very good.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[uscpsycho]

The Drake II with cyclone flush moves 800 grams. That's smoking!!
Anything 500 grams or more is very good.

I am specifically considering the Neorest 500h. Is that equally smoking?

Any idea about the Kohler Veil Intelligent toilet?

I've never seen this "gram movement" spec before, but then again I didn't know it existed so I've never looked for it. Is this commonly published by toilet manufacturers and easy to find?

 

[Terry]

The Kohler Veil
http://www.us.kohler.com/us/Veil-In...lush-toilet/productDetail/toilets/1120267.htm

And the TOTO Neorest 500H
http://totousa.com/neorest®-550h-dual-flush-toilet-10-08-gpf

An elegant skirted one-piece unit, this Neorest offers ecology-minded luxury, with our technologically advanced Washlet, Tornado siphon jet flushing system, remote control, heated seat and CeFiONtect, an extraordinarily smooth, ion-barrier surface to help keep the bowl cleaner longer. - See more at: http://totousa.com/neorest®-550h-dual-flush-toilet-10-08-gpf#sthash.BCsDB7bk.dpuf

Neorest 550H

Both of the aboved mentioned use electricty and a pump for the flushing.
Warm seat, warm wash, air dry and automatic features like flushing, seat lifting.
You're not using much paper with these, and I haven't had any complaints from my customers. They seem to like them a lot.
Well...I did have one say he didn't like listening to some of the motorized functions. His was in a small room with a lot of solid surface.
Oh well. They are pretty nice though. I like the styling on the Kohler Veil. Looks nice.

https://terrylove.com/forums/index.php?threads/toto-neorest-550h-ms982cumg-with-pictures.65021/

 

[Jadnashua]

The main thing that causes a modern toilet to flush is usually a siphon jet to get things in the bowl moving. What the rest of the water is used for is to wash the bowl. At least a couple of ways to do that...lots of holes all around the rim that rain down the side which as a disadvantage, has a stepped rim that is harder to keep clean and might not reach all areas, and if you have hard water, those small holes can eventually become clogged with mineral deposits; or, something like Toto's cyclone rinse, which has two large jets that cause the water to swirl around the bowl on the way down. Neither the wash down nor the cyclone action really affect the actual waste flush, they deal with cleaning the sides of the bowl. The cyclone action works better and doesn't have the stepped rim that is harder to keep clean.

 

[WJcandee]

I've never seen this "gram movement" spec before, but then again I didn't know it existed so I've never looked for it. Is this commonly published by toilet manufacturers and easy to find?

Yes. However, the manufacturers learned how to game the system a bit, and the nature of the material "moved" (which is a facsimile of the real thing but not the real thing) changed a bit to make it easier to move in the more-recent tests.

The tests are actually conducted by a group, and are called MAP ratings. The government requires toilets to have a minimum MAP rating of (something) to qualify for Watersense rebates. Here is the MAP web site: http://www.map-testing.com/map-search.html

For what it's worth, in a gravity toilet (one that doesn't go "WOOSH!!!!" when you flush it, which is the vast preponderance of consumer toilets), the waste is actually evacuated from the bowl by means of a siphon. In other words, it gets sucked out not pushed out. Toto developed the first trapway that was truly-effective at this, and all their gravity toilets have it. Within the past couple of years, most manufacturers have managed to reverse-engineer it or something close, and so, finally, 20 years after the low-flow toilets were mandated, most new toilets work okay. However, bottom line is that anything Toto kicks butt in evacuating waste. Bowl cleaning is an issue in low-flow toilets, because in engineering what to do with the 1.28 gallons per flush, you have to decide how much is directed at bowl cleaning and how much is used to start the siphon through the little jet below and thus doesn't go towards bowl-cleaning.

The Neorest is in a wholly-separate class of toilets and is an extraordinary machine. Anyone who has used one wishes they had the spare $$ lying around to buy one. The Japanese aren't fazed by buying a toilet whose price is a different order of magnitude than the typical American toilet, but Americans don't plan from birth to put one in their homes. You would likely be the first on your block to have one, but your friends and neighbors, once they used one at your place, would seriously consider it, I suspect.

 

[uscpsycho]

Both of the aboved mentioned use electricty and a pump for the flushing.
Warm seat, warm wash, air dry and automatic features like flushing, seat lifting.
You're not using much paper with these, and I haven't had any complaints from my customers. They seem to like them a lot.
Well...I did have one say he didn't like listening to some of the motorized functions. His was in a small room with a lot of solid surface.

Any feedback from your customers on the Neorest's auto flush feature? I worry about this because I've had a lot of bad experiences with auto flushing toilets in public restrooms. They seem to have a mind of their own and go off before you're ready for them to, or don't go off when they should.

For what it's worth, in a gravity toilet (one that doesn't go "WOOSH!!!!" when you flush it, which is the vast preponderance of consumer toilets), the waste is actually evacuated from the bowl by means of a siphon. In other words, it gets sucked out not pushed out.

You have effectively convinced me to get a Toto toilet in every bathroom but the master (where I might get the Veil Intelligent). But tell me about these non-gravity toilets that go WOOSH. Sounds like those have greater suction? Do they qualify as low flow? I'm in CA where toilets can't be more than 1.28gpf.

 

[Jadnashua]

There are four ways to generally flush a toilet...high volume from something like a flushometer (often seen in commercial or high rise buildings - no tank, just a very large water supply); a gravity flush toilet - probably the most common one out there; a motorized pump flush - Toto does make some of these - they're neat, but expensive; pressure assisted toilets - these tend to make the WOOSH sound...water is stored in a pressurized tank in the toilet - when you flush, that water under pressure is released. A pressure assisted toilet gets its energy from the water supply, not a local pump. That high pressure makes the noise when released, and while it can break apart a logjam, it can also shred the paper, makes a lot of noise, and can leave little bits in the bowl. On a macro standpoint, the end result isn't necessarily better than any other method, just a different way to achieve an end result. By far, the easiest to maintain is a gravity flush toilet since the overall mechanism is simple, and the parts are inexpensive. IMHO, the best choice, all things considered.

 

[uscpsycho]

Wow. Thanks for all the info! In the course of this remodel I have learned all kinds of things about all sorts of things.

The suction power of a toilet is important because there is a history in this household of bowel movements that many toilets can't clear. The plunger sees a lot of action. So I have to buy toilets that are best equipped to handle this. Getting the right toilets is a very high priority item even in the scope of an entire home remodel.

I hope the electricity-and-pump action of the Veil/Neorest will be powerful enough. For all the other bathrooms I'm sold on the Drake II. However, I wonder if there is something unique about the Drake II or if any Toto with the "double cyclone" system is just as good. I don't love the way the Drake looks but I do like the way other Totos like the Legato look, and it has the double cyclone.

So is the Drake II in a league of its own or are there other Toto toilets that work just as well?

Thanks!

 

[Jadnashua]

The Drake series is Toto's workhorse. Functionality of the others with the II designation will be similar. FWIW, there is a very slight improvement with a 2-piece toilet verses a one-piece one, since the tank on the 2-piece is slightly taller...it's mostly theoretical, but could be measured in a lab, since the difference is so slight.

Totos work for the vast majority of people, but if someone in your home has a medical condition causing long-hard stools, even it may not work all of the time. There, a pressure assisted flush might break apart things that a gravity flush might not. The usual winner in this contest for that situation, though, is one with a much larger trapway, the Caroma brand. Totos' trapways are in the order of 2-1/8", that one from Australia is 3". The only diss I've heard on the Caromas' is they tend to splash your butt if you flush while sitting.

 

[Terry]

The Legato works like the Drake II. That and the Aimes which is similar. There are others in the TOTO line with the II afterwards that have the double cyclone and good flush too.

 

[WJcandee]

But tell me about these non-gravity toilets that go WOOSH.

These would be so-called "pressure assist" toilets. The only ones worth buying use the Sloan Flushmate pressure assist module. The ones that use the WTI dual-flush pressure assist have had failures, well-documented on the Internet, that in my view disqualify them The Flushmate does have a remote chance of exploding, although Sloan claims that it has fixed the issue. The pressure-assist toilets use a different bowl, so can never be converted to gravity; you just have to toss it if you don't like it. The main complaint about them is that they are loud. They look more or less like a regular toilet, but when you open the tank, there is a sealed device in there that holds the water rather than open water in the tank. If you are in a humid climate, this means that they don't ever "sweat", although most modern low-flows don't either in normal use. Toto doesn't bother with them. American Standared has a few, like the Flowise Pressure. Gerber also makes a pressure Ultraflush.

Most pressure assists are/were 1.6gpf. They do make a 1.1gpf these days, but I have no experience with it.

Here's a video from my favorite toilet-obsessed kid, ToiletFam1, on youtube. He has for years gone around videoing toilets in restrooms. His voice has changed since this video, and his videography has improved dramatically too. You can see the Flushmate. What toiletfan1 didn't know at the time was the reason for the right-hand flush on the toilet he was looking at. In a public restroom, because of the ADA, you are supposed to put the flush handle on the side closest to the most-open side of the stall or restroom, so someone in a wheelchair can easily access it. That's why manufacturers usually make at least one version of toilets that sometimes are installed in commercial applications (like the Drake) with a right-handle option, usually only in white, as most commercial restrooms don't blow $$ on colored porcelain. The usual pressure-assist will have the handle in the normal location.

 

[jroede01]

The Legato works like the Drake II. That and the Aimes which is similar. There are others in the TOTO line with the II afterwards that have the double cyclone and good flush too.

Can the Legato be installed with a 5 1/2 in wall water supply line? I already installed a Dahl valve would that help

 

[WJcandee]

5.5" left of the flange centerline should be fine, espectially assuming it's on a full 12" rough-in and you have a Dahl skirted-toilet valve there.