Bathroom reno questions

Discussion in 'Shower & Bathtub Forum & Blog' started by crossthreaded, Mar 6, 2007.

  1. crossthreaded

    crossthreaded New Member

    Messages:
    31
    I am going to be redoing my bathroom this week and just wanted to clarify my materials and where they will be used. the bathroom is 88 1/2 " square. I was planning on replacing pretty much everything.

    for the floors
    I will be tearing up the old linoleum floor, checking level, then putting down thinset and then 1/2" wonderboard. I was planning on putting this a few inches under where the new tub will come to. I will then tile the floor. is hardibacker or wonderboard preferred on the floor, I would think wonderboard for stiffness.

    for the shower I was planning on ripping out the old tile and old cast tub and
    then lining the area with 1/2" hardibacker, then installing the shower liner, possibly in a bed of mortar. Will I need to use a vapor barrier for this, if so what thickness plastic should I use? Is the bed of mortar necessary ( I can build a frame under it if that is a better option)? Would I be better off lining the area with greenboard? I will be painting the area on the top and putting waynescoating to 48" on the walls with molding on the top edge.

    I will then install the baseboards, moldings, waynescoating, toilet, sink, etc.

    Do I have a good timeline or is there something that I need to do in a differant order?

    Is there anything that I should NOT do?

    thanks for the help.

    I can provide pictures if that would help once I get home, I am at work right now.
    Last edited: Mar 6, 2007
  2. jadnashua

    jadnashua Retired Defense Industry Engineer xxx

    Messages:
    22,126
    Location:
    New England
    Before you can put down tile, you need to find out what layers there are on the subflooring, and the condition, size, and spacing of the joists along with their unsupported length. This has little correlation to the room size, it is the total length of the joists that can deflect. A cbu on the floor does NOT appreciably affect the structure strength, so unless you want the additional height, 1/4" stuff is fine. Choose the brand you prefer. An alternative is to use a membrane such as Ditra from www.schluter.com or another brand. This is easier and faster to install, and actually does a better job.

    Suggest you check out www.johnbridge.com for your tiling questions. They have a deflection calculator that can tell you if your floor is suitable for tile. Also note, the deflection requirements are different depending on whether the tile is ceramic or natural stone (porcelain is a type of ceramic, and doesn't get its own category). There are also very detailed instructions in their "liberry" on the correct method to build a shower. Yes, you need a liner, and yes, you (typically) need a preslope. Forget greenboard...use cbu. You can actually put normal drywall on the walls if you use Kerdi, also from www.schluter.com (go to their site and watch the video to see how it goes together).

    Doing the whole thing in a week is optomistic, unless you are a pro. It almost always takes longer than you think, and the older the house is, the more you find needs to be repaired in the process. Cast iron stuff is harder to change than pvc. If you are going to change the tub to a shower, your drain line needs to be upgraded to a 2" from what is likely 1.5", too. So, good luck and ask some more specific questions.
    Last edited: Mar 6, 2007
  3. leejosepho

    leejosepho DIY scratch-pad engineer

    I can certainly confirm that! To be safe, double the number and go to the next larger unit of measure ... where one week becomes two months!
  4. crossthreaded

    crossthreaded New Member

    Messages:
    31

    well it's already a shower/tub in there, but I guess I will have to open it up and see what size is there. Do you mean I will have to change out the whole wet vent to 2"?

    The only thing that needs to be done by then is the shower has to be working. I have another 1/2 bath that I can use. I have a friend who rents a room from me and he is out of town for a week so I am trying to keep from making him inconvieninced as much as possible.
  5. jadnashua

    jadnashua Retired Defense Industry Engineer xxx

    Messages:
    22,126
    Location:
    New England
    If you are tearing out the tub to make it a shower, yes, you need to change the drain to 2". If it is remaining, then the 1.5" is fine.

    If you are just updating the walls with new tile, then in the meantime, you could rig up some plastic on the studs, draining into the tub and take a shower. And, yes, you need a vapor barrier behind the cbu on the walls. Run it down over the tile flange of the tub. If you have to, shim the walls slightly so that the cbu will come down over the flange as well. This is somewhat optional, if the tile are not small mosaics. You can stop the cbu at the flange, otherwise, bring it to within about 1/4" of the tub. What you don't want is to have the cbu bow out at the tub flange.
  6. crossthreaded

    crossthreaded New Member

    Messages:
    31

    I am not putting tile back up, I am putting in a 2 piece shower surround unit.

    what thickness plastic should I use behind the hardibacker on the walls?

    should I put hardibacker up, then the surround, then cut green board to fit around the shower surround on the tops and sides? or is that the wrong way to do it?

    I just pulled the sink and toilet up and am getting ready to start pulling up the linoleum.
  7. jadnashua

    jadnashua Retired Defense Industry Engineer xxx

    Messages:
    22,126
    Location:
    New England
    Well, if you are taking the tub out and replacing it with a shower...code requires the drain line to be 2". You almost certainly have a 1.5" line. You will have to change it all the way back until it gets to at least 2".

    Follow the manufacturer's instructions on installation. Some of those things are attached directly to the studs, some need something on the walls. Since the pre-fab walls are waterproof, it probably doesn't matter. If you haven't bought the thing yet, you can usually read the instructions on the manufacturer's website.
  8. Leave lino

    Hi crossthreaded!

    Jim gave you good information. I second that.

    Lino can be left, on the floor, as a tile-ready membrane that absorbs a bit of the impact of footsteps. Reduces noise, makes a slightly softer feel under your feet especially pleasant if you are not used to walking on hard surfaces.

    Just scuff it up to receive the thinset.

    You still need to answer the joist question. With that information, you may find out that you risk seeing little cracks appear in your tiles.

    FYI, if you are only installing a plastic shower, you don't need the plastic vapor barrier behind the walls. You also don't need hardibacker. You could use the highest quality sheetrock (gypsum board), if it is better than the stuff known as greenboard. I have seen a new product in the last year that claims to be "even better", made by USG who makes greenboard.

    David
  9. crossthreaded

    crossthreaded New Member

    Messages:
    31

    well the tile is halfway falling off already, plus I already started tearing it up :eek:

    I saw the usg product advertised on sale for 12 bucks a sheet in the lowes flyer...I think I will try it out.

    well I have basically realized that I bought all the wrong stuff and I will need to carry it back down the stairs to my truck, then put it on the cart and roll it back in the store. too thick of hardibacker, grey thinset for white tiles, i can go on... :mad:

    Once I get the tile up I will take a look at the subfloor and go from there as to what I need to do.

    judging by the construction of other floors of the house the joists are 2x10 on an 11' span 16" O.C.

    my new plan is to get everything except the tub ripped out, and get the new closet framed. get the old tiles torn up, and get the floors ready for tile.

    hopefully over the next week after work I can get everything ready to go and on my days off this week coming up get it for the most part knocked out.

    I figure if I take it down to studs and get everything hauled off on my days off I can put up some thick plastic to still use the shower.
  10. short-term construction standards

    You mean the lino tiles, right?
    I am a firm believer in using the right materials in the right places. Hanging plastic for a temporary shower is a good idea. :D

    David
  11. crossthreaded

    crossthreaded New Member

    Messages:
    31
    I am a stickler for standards and torque specs and any other specifications or standards I can follow.

    I am a diesel mechanic by day, but know very little about home improvement projects. I bought a house in july and am in the process of learning how to do all these things slowly but surely. almost everything in this house will need to be fixed up a little bit before I sell it in about 1.5 years, so I will be on the forum alot :D
  12. Welcome to this TLove forum!
  13. crossthreaded

    crossthreaded New Member

    Messages:
    31
    ok well I got the old tire torn up and found some water damage around the toilet flange. the flooring is 3" t and g on top of 2x8's or 2x10's going diagonal.

    the question is would it be better to rip up all the t and g and lay down some 5/8 or 3/4 ply on top and then my hardibacker? or better to get it all up and start fresh?

    I have some pictures taken and will upload those tonight. hopefully this weekend I can get the bathtub ripped up and the new one put in place. I was thinking of just tiling right in front of the tub and under it a little and then doing the rest of the tile next week. is this a feasable plan? I might be able to get the room done and leave the edges undone, but I doubt I will have time to cut all the edge tile as well as set the tub.
  14. leejosepho

    leejosepho DIY scratch-pad engineer

    I would repair the bad spot and cover the entire floor with at least 5/8" plywood, then 1/2" concrete board.

    Sounds fine to me, and if you plan your layout carefully, you will not have to cut tile to later finish at the opposing wall.
  15. jadnashua

    jadnashua Retired Defense Industry Engineer xxx

    Messages:
    22,126
    Location:
    New England
    FWIW, cbu has almost no structural advantage, so unless you need the height, choose 1/4" or a membrane. You do need the plywood on top of the planks. The planks move too much and will translate that to the tile, even with the cbu down.
  16. crossthreaded

    crossthreaded New Member

    Messages:
    31
    well if I do that I will be up over the wood floor in the hallway by almost an inch, before the tile. Would it work out to take up the t and g and then put 5/8 ply down, perhaps 3/4? I do not want to have a huge step up into the bathroom.

    on top of the ply would be 1/4 hardibacker.

    I will also have to be upgrading the wetvent to 2" which will run about 5 feet through the middle of the room over to the toilet location. I will put up some pictures to get a better idea of the floorplan.

    so with the 1/2 planks and 3/4 ply I would be at 5/4 subfloor, does this sound right?
    Last edited: Mar 8, 2007
  17. crossthreaded

    crossthreaded New Member

    Messages:
    31
    pictures of the bathroom before and after floor tile removal.

    the closet straight through the door will be cut out and will just be a recess in the room with a wall going to the ceiling on the right up against the tub surround. I will then put some nicer shelves in there and cover with a curtain of some sort.

    I will be putting waynescoating on the walls up to the current molding strip, but changing the molding and putting a small shelf on the wall to the right of the shower and over the sink/toilet.

    Attached Files:

  18. crossthreaded

    crossthreaded New Member

    Messages:
    31
    could only do 5 pics per message.

    Attached Files:

  19. leejosepho

    leejosepho DIY scratch-pad engineer

    I would suspect the 3" t-g is actually 3/4" thick, and back in my day of residential building, a typical, quality floor had two layers of 5/8" plywood, with a cheaper version being one layer of plywood and a top layer of particle board (where OSB is now more common, I believe).

    In my own opinion, you need at least an inch-and-a-quarter of sub-floor, and I do understand your floor-height dilemma. On top of my original two layers of 1x3 t-g, I have already added 1/2" concrete board and another 1/4" of thinset with heating wire embedded, and I still have a little more build and the actual tile to go. I might later make some of that up by adding a little to the hallway floor, but a small step and some kind of threshhold at the bathrom door is soon to be an unavoidable reality.

    But, maybe someone who is more current on materials and applications can suggest something better for you.
  20. crossthreaded

    crossthreaded New Member

    Messages:
    31

    yeah i just went up and checked it out, it is 3/4 inch. the lower boards were also water damaged so I knocked a few out near the flange and the floor looks to be doubled up 2x8's 16" oc. I think at this point I am planning on just ripping it out down to the joists and starting over. It will be a big pain to run the new wet vent without tearing up the floors.


    so what is the best way to do the subfloor?

    I am thinking 2 sheets of 5/8 ply, then 1/4 inch hardi backer but please correct me if I am wrong.
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