Bathroom remodel copper and brass drains

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big_rat

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Hello all,

I am remodeling my bathroom. I removed all of the tile and mudbeds. I have copper drain pipes and what looks like a brass toilet flange. This is my first time working with shower drains. Looks like the previous shower leaked. I cannot access from under the floor because the room underneath is finished and I'm not planning to rip out the ceiling to do this work (also my wife will murder me if I cause any more damage...).

Shower drain:
The bottom part is currently flush with the subfloor planks (see attached pictures). I want to add 1/2" plywood to the floor. What are my options with installing the drain on top of the new plywood? Do I have to rip this drain out somehow and replace?

Toilet drain:
The toilet drain is too high up because the mudbed was very thick. The 1/2" plywood isn't going to come close to the mudbed height and I also prefer to lower the height of the floor because it was overly high to begin with. I have read that the brass flange can be heated up and pried off. Should I reuse the flange or can I find a matching flange in Home Depot or plumbing stores? If I remove the flange, how do I solder it in place so the flange is resting on the finished tile? Can I solder the pipe by adding solder from the inside after the floor is done?

My other thought which I would like to avoid if possible is cut out parts of the subfloor and replace the copper with PVC so I can redo the drain heights. I feel like I will open up another can of worms if I go down this path (I'm already up to my neck in work for this project). Thanks all!
 
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CountryBumkin

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When building a Shower there are several ways you can do the waterproofing. The PVC Liner method, a surface applied membrane (like Kerdi), and surface applied liquid membrane (like Hydroban).

So first you need to pick a method, then a drain that is compatable with that method. For a DIYer, the easiest , IMO, is the surface applied membrane. There are kits available too. Just be sure your new shower has a pre-slope (the waterproofing material used on the floor must slope to the drain). Generally, no matter which method you use, the drain will need to be raised about 1/2" off the plywood (to allow for the preslope).

Besides this site, another forum you should be looking at is http://www.johnbridge.com/vbulletin/forumdisplay.php?f=1
 

big_rat

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I'm more focused right now on how to remove the toilet flange and the shower drain itself. I will probably use Noble Membrane or Redgard to water proof the shower.
 

big_rat

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I tried removing the toilet brass flange with propane and it wouldn't budge. I got the solder to bubble at the top but i couldn't pry the flange off. I think the flange has like an inch or more of solder.

Do you guys think Mapp Pro gas would work better?

I found this 3" copper to 3" plastic shielded coupling: http://www.homedepot.com/p/ProFlex-3-in-x-3-in-EPDM-Rubber-Shielded-Coupling-P3007-33/205107047

You guys think it would be a good repair if I can get the flange off, cut the pipe and use this coupler to switch to plastic? My only concern is that there might not be enough room to do this.
 

MichaelBukay

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Do it right. Cut the floor and repipe for the fixtures. Or just add 2 plywood boards to make up the difference. But seriously; do it right.
 

MichaelBukay

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Is the use of a fernco and using PVC not considered right?
It's ok. Use shielded couplings instead. I was just saying its probably a good idea to open the floor. If not, you have to build up the floor to make it work with what's there. If it is possible to cut out the old and put in new, do it. Trying to un-solder a brass toilet flange with a little tiny torch and trying to re-solder it after you cut the pipe down... easier to cut the floor and add plastic, if you have the room. Its ok to transition to plastic, just use an appropriate transition coupling. And if you absolutely need to un-solder that flange, get some acetylene.
 

big_rat

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The coupling I linked is a shielded coupling. I'm trying to desolder the flange, cut the pipe and then couple it to PVC and then add a PVC flange. Sorry if I was not clear. Yes I also realize I need to cut the floor open. I am going to get some planks to replace the planks I cut out then put a layer of 1/2" plywood on top of that.

How do you suggest I make my cut on the 3" copper pipe to make a clean as cut as possible?
 

big_rat

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When installing PVC pipe for the toilet drain, is it possible for me to stick some PVC pipe through the floor, finish tiling and then cut the pipe to the exact height of the finished floor and add a flange?
 

big_rat

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Hello all,

I removed the subfloor as suggested. Much to my dismay I discovered the shower pipe is 1.5". I am thinking about removing all of the copper and capping it off near the main stack, cutting the toilet pipe, install a 3" PVC wye with a 2" inlet and repipe the shower drain all the way to the wye. Does this sound like a good plan to increase the size of the pipe? My drain stack is solid copper so I cannot really mess with it. Thanks all.
 

Jadnashua

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It sounds like you may have a lead riser to your toilet flange, and a typical homeowner's torch will not deal with it adequately. Plus, if it IS lead, you should not try to use any coupler as the lead itself is likely, first, not round anymore, and is somewhat malleable, so making the seal with the coupling is not reliable.

Noble TS (if that's what you were considering) is a nice product, but it is quite thick and it makes corners difficult without a huge buildup. My preference is for a different one - both Kerdi and Hydroban sheet membranes are MUCH thinner, and do not require special sealants for the seams so there's one less product to buy (FWIW, Noble's seam sealant is not inexpensive, so figure that into the overall costs).
 

big_rat

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I also just noticed that the current copper toilet pipe is sloping the wrong way from the main drain. There is a slight slope of about 1/8" going towards the toilet elbow. The pipe is a little over a foot long between the stack t and the elbow.

If I cut the copper pipe close to the stack and then correct the slope with PVC will it be ok? Like if the copper stub is sloped close to level for 6" and the PVC is at least 1/4" slope will it work?

I never noticed any issue with the toilet before but then again I didn't use it much.
 
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Jadnashua

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Ideally, there should be slope the entire way otherwise, there will always be some water (and maybe waste) sitting in the pipe rather than it draining. Right at the outlet of the toilet, the velocity is fairly significant, and it decreases as it goes most of the time (on a horizontal sloped section), which is why you probably haven't noticed a problem - that initial velocity moves waste past that short negative sloped section. But, because water may have been sitting in that small section for decades, it could have corroded the inside of the pipe. This is more of a problem if the toilet doesn't get flushed, say at night, to avoid making extra noise...the uric acid can literally eat the copper pipe away on the bottom. When flushed, it is very significantly diluted, and normally isn't an issue.
 

big_rat

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Yeah I'm not happy about it so I'd like to improve it the best that I can and cut the copper close to the stack and then switch to PVC with a good slope.
 

CountryBumkin

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Assuming you can access the cleanout from below - I think the P-trap with cleanout plug is just another place for a leak. IMO. With Tubs there is not much junk going down the drain but water (maybe a little hair, but even so, much less than with a sink) so I wouldn't worry about it.
 

big_rat

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I primered and put cement on a pipe and elbow. When I tried to join the two I realized there was some wood blocking the way so I sawed the wood out of the way. I applied more cement around the pipe and elbow and still had some trouble fitting the pipe into the elbow. It took about a minute to get the pipe into the elbow. Once in I held it in place for 20 seconds. The joint feels very strong and I cannot twist the pipe off. Do you think I need to redo this or is it ok?
 

big_rat

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This is for the toilet fixture btw. I have 60" lbs of torque on the shielded coupler screws. I spilled a gallon of water into the elbow. There are no leaks but I tend to be paranoid.
 

big_rat

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I am hoping to close up the subfloor tomorrow so hopefully someone can let me know what they think tonight. :)
 
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