Bath to Tile Shower Conversion

Discussion in 'Shower & bathtub Forum & Blog' started by mikekay, Aug 22, 2013.

  1. mikekay

    mikekay New Member

    Messages:
    17
    Location:
    TORONTO
    Hello, I've read some of the posts on the this and really love the feel and advice. So I thought I would join.

    Although I've read as much as I could I haven't found something that directly described my situation but have definitely gained some insight.

    I live in an apartment and own, we have an ensuite washroom and there used to be a tub there. We are in the process of changing it to a tile shower - hence title of post. Anyway I know about the whole underlay, PVC coating, concrete wall sheets, etc. But where I lack lots of DIY is plumbing knowledge.

    I will not be installing a shower 'base' and will pour concrete at 1/4" for every 1' of length -- making my own base. The concrete slab is cut right through, and my P-Trap is in the neighbours apartment below me. I have also already bought the membrane for the floor, and will line the backeboard with lining as well.

    My problem here is the overflow. How you you go about removing the overflow (cap overflow, pour into concrete, raise drain??) and whats the most efficient way of tie-ing into the existing plumbing.

    Is removing the p-trap and bringing it all back up the only way? What drains do I have as options? Which one would be the best to use?

    Any advice is appreciated!

    Thanks,

    Mike Kay

    Pictures attached.

    https://www.dropbox.com/s/hzp9pz6fr2hwre7/IMG_00002670.jpg
    https://www.dropbox.com/s/6kph62m3plhpyp0/IMG_00002669.jpg
    https://www.dropbox.com/s/jk7656qu0pmbb69/IMG_00002668.jpg
    https://www.dropbox.com/s/kob4iop4l8yj9s3/IMG_00002662.jpg
    https://www.dropbox.com/s/alf5s8agbkmb7gh/IMG_00002661.jpg

    [​IMG]
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 22, 2013
  2. johnfrwhipple

    johnfrwhipple I love these ACO Shower Drains - Best in Class

    Messages:
    4,003
    Location:
    North Vancouver, BC
    Mike.

    Good Idea checking on some plumbing advice. First off that is the old tub works you have there. You P-Trap is below the back overflow side closest to the wall. You will need to remove the fire stopping that surrounds this piping and cut out that old bath overflow and waste section. We find a Dremel and 20 cut off blades works well for tight quarters. I showed the process somewhere here one day.

    Those walls. Which are yours and which are your neighbours? Remeber that multi family reno's you need fire rated processes - often fireboard is required behind backer board. So in your case you might need fire board, then your shower liner and then concrete board.

    I would use a cast iron clamping drain. Watts makes one. Zurn has one. ACO makes one (and some great linear drains for across that back wall).

    Make sure you understand firecodes for your walls and floor penetrations and make sure you remove that old plumbing. The process is difficult and takes me most times 1-3 hours depending on how steady my hand is and how big the through hole is. Hilti makes great fireproofing products for the repairs.

    JW
  3. johnfrwhipple

    johnfrwhipple I love these ACO Shower Drains - Best in Class

    Messages:
    4,003
    Location:
    North Vancouver, BC
    I notice that you have a wooden shower curb as well. I would switch that out. Wood does not belong in a shower curb's construction.
  4. mikekay

    mikekay New Member

    Messages:
    17
    Location:
    TORONTO
    Thanks for the reply, the only walls that are not mine are: top and bottom, and far 5ft wall that runs parallel to the 'lip'. I will lay durock over the 2x4 and also lay it with membrane. I have seen this and I know its not standard practice it will suffice. But just for next time what is the officially used material?

    As for fire ratings -- the removed tub liner and drywall, wasn't fire rated. The Durock I used has is fire rated, so the walls are not a problem... again before the reno there was regular drywall in there. The floor where the concrete and piping drain meeting point is is a little more of a concern. That hole needs to be fire-rated. Any suggestions for what to put there? There will be concrete on top of the hole but I dont think it will be enough. Could I fill it with a sturdier insulation?

    So cut after the ptrap -- dremel amazing IDEA! thank you. Beats getting a grinder through the gap :/ Linear drains would be nice but are too pricey around here. I will stick with a square and butt it up against the tiles.

    What do you think?

    Thanks in advance
    Last edited: Aug 22, 2013
  5. mikekay

    mikekay New Member

    Messages:
    17
    Location:
    TORONTO
    Sorry and one more question for the connection @ bottom of clamp drain to cut off ptrap pipe up. Would I just use a rubber quick connect with 2 clamps at top and bottom?

    Do I put anything on the inside of the rubber? plumbers putty or glue?

    Thanks again! Huge help! GSR - Geoff referred me to the forum and I got answers where others couldnt. You can tell you've done your years in the business.
  6. johnfrwhipple

    johnfrwhipple I love these ACO Shower Drains - Best in Class

    Messages:
    4,003
    Location:
    North Vancouver, BC
    Mike I sell ACO linear drains and provide one hour design for all my clients. I prefer these drains since any waterproofing process can be used with them (as long as they are approved).

    Your drain will need to be quite close to the short wall of the shower. So your rubber liner is going to go crazy. If you can after the firestopping is removed see how much room you have to bring the drain closer away from the wall. Often we can sit the new drain to the front edge of the hole in the concrete floor.

    We drive in a few pins (1/4" Galvanized pipe rod) into the sides of these holes after the fireblocking work is done.

    I would need to know a lot of information to pick the best approach for you. Once you remove the firestopping and get the old tub works removed let us know how things look and we can re asses.

    JW
  7. johnfrwhipple

    johnfrwhipple I love these ACO Shower Drains - Best in Class

    Messages:
    4,003
    Location:
    North Vancouver, BC
    I use a lot of Noble Company's NobleFlex Flashing for this type of work.

    The 1.5" Nobleflex Flashing can drop onto your new clamping drain nicely and then the crazy folds do not happen in the corner.

    You should look up a "Tucked Corner" before getting to far ahead of wall boarding....

    JW
  8. johnfrwhipple

    johnfrwhipple I love these ACO Shower Drains - Best in Class

    Messages:
    4,003
    Location:
    North Vancouver, BC
    [​IMG]

    Found some pictures for you Mike. I removed the password on this album so you could see it.

    [​IMG]

    Any movement will shatter these cut off wheels. Take your time....

    [​IMG]
  9. mikekay

    mikekay New Member

    Messages:
    17
    Location:
    TORONTO
    This is awesome advice. Thank you so much Terry. You've made me realize things I would have realized on a day when I'm just trying to move ahead with the project and would have kept getting 'stuck', and we all know thats not fun.

    Tucked corner, Pig ear, got it -- those are the easy parts no :)

    I will update you with pictures in about 30 minutes when I get back to apartment, I would have loved to purchase from you maybe if you have a supplier in toronto?

    Again thanks for the help its been awesome. Couple more q's sparked.... This 1.5" noble company thing is used for low piping, could I fold up the edge to get the drain right up against the wall? Once I cut existing could I add an elbow to bring it more toward the center? or does the ptrap have to stay a p with no elbows in it?

    Recommendations?

    Mike k
  10. johnfrwhipple

    johnfrwhipple I love these ACO Shower Drains - Best in Class

    Messages:
    4,003
    Location:
    North Vancouver, BC
    Mike what are the measurements of this shower with the existing walls and curb in place?

    Careful how much pressure you apply to those pipes when removing the old tub's drain. You also don't want to send done large chunks of firestopping and concrete when you bust through. We have on occasion gone through from below and then repaired and repainted the neighbors ceiling. Do they have a Hilti shop near you? I go in to buy just what I need for each job since the product needs to be fresh and the material is pricy. Prepare to drop about $60.00-$100.00 to properly firestop and repair the old through hole.

    JW
  11. jadnashua

    jadnashua Retired Defense Industry Engineer xxx

    Messages:
    21,917
    Location:
    New England
    FWIW, in the US, codes PROHIBIT anyone but a licensed plumber to work on any multi-family construction - IOW, the homeowner CANNOT do the plumbing (and often electrical) work himself UNLESS he is a licensed tradesman. I do not know how building permits and this sort of thing works in Canada, but would expect a reasonably sized city like Toronto is probably similar to the US codes.

    It isn't clear to me that you have the fine details of a shower construction down. There are LOTS of different approved methods, but the details on each of them must be followed, and mixing and matching or short-changing even one detail can compromise the integrity of the thing. While it isn't actually hard, it is VERY detail oriented. You don't want to be trying to reinvent the wheel here...there's a reason why only certain methods are approved.

    If you're building a conventional, backerboard, liner equipped shower...the shower pan isn't really 'poured', it is shaped with deck mud, then the liner is installed (the liner MUST be sloped to the drain), then another layer of deck mud is installed parallel to the sloped pan and liner, then you can tile. There are details on how to cut, seal, and shape the liner over the curb, how high that liner must be, and how to get a tileable surface on the curb without compromising the waterproofing (you CANNOT just nail or screw cbu onto the top and sides of the liner and expect it to be waterproof!).

    Canada has some specific rules on how to build a shower, and the TCNA handbook is also, I think, acceptable as a standard in Canada. Each of them outlines multiple ways to build a quality, leakproof shower. You need to become familiar with one or more of those documents.
  12. johnfrwhipple

    johnfrwhipple I love these ACO Shower Drains - Best in Class

    Messages:
    4,003
    Location:
    North Vancouver, BC
    As a homeowner you are allowed to do your own plumbing here in Canada.

    In a multi family home only the plumbing that goes into common property is serviced by the building or strata. The plumbing for the shower is in the owners suite or the ceiling of his neighbours.

    What is required is proper inspections be made. This includes the plumbing inspectors visit and the general inspector's visit for the fire stopping.

    JW
  13. mikekay

    mikekay New Member

    Messages:
    17
    Location:
    TORONTO
    Just wanted to post the final result of my shower, Thank you for the help John. It's nice to know that there are still some people out there willing to help out.

    P1080391.jpg

    Not completely there, but alot of it done, and couldn't look better. Counters and sink/faucet up next!

    Thanks again!
  14. johnfrwhipple

    johnfrwhipple I love these ACO Shower Drains - Best in Class

    Messages:
    4,003
    Location:
    North Vancouver, BC
    Thanks Mike.

    Tell me you flood tested your work. If you snapped a picture of that please post it here alongside your finished work.
  15. mikekay

    mikekay New Member

    Messages:
    17
    Location:
    TORONTO
    I should shove a ball in the drain right? And fill it to an inch and see water escapes. Why do you want to see a picture of the flood test? I have another problem, I've silicone everything and only have one small leak in the corner @ glass frame no biggy. But because of the awesome design (not) of the shower column the spray is directed straight toward the door! And the lip (unsloped) when I open the door water sitting on the pours out! Rubber bumper is the only way at this point right? Sigh? Can you help me?
  16. johnfrwhipple

    johnfrwhipple I love these ACO Shower Drains - Best in Class

    Messages:
    4,003
    Location:
    North Vancouver, BC
    I like to see them to know they where done. It also shows other DIYers that the step is not hard and easy to preform.

    Any way to drill a weep hole somewhere to let some water drain away?

    Any way to add some flat bar stock to the frame on an angle so it makes no room for water to sit there?

    Could you run a bead of clear silicone over this piece?

    Maybe a photo of the exact problem.
  17. mikekay

    mikekay New Member

    Messages:
    17
    Location:
    TORONTO
    Searched high and low in my pictures but couldn't find one. It was a rubber liner that we used and concrete bed. I have a picture prior to doing it, but not while doing it.

    Thanks for the reply I will take a shower in it tonight and try and show you were the water is standing and a detail of the construction.

    Thanks John!
  18. johnfrwhipple

    johnfrwhipple I love these ACO Shower Drains - Best in Class

    Messages:
    4,003
    Location:
    North Vancouver, BC
    Your Welcome Mike.

    SIDE TRACK INFO UPDATE

    I find this so interesting. Remember how our local expert of all things (Big Red Shoe) says linking to the JB forum is a tit for tat? Here in this post you can see Jim answering plumbing questions on John's forum. No link to Terry's Forum. Just Jim taking info he learns here and posting it there. I see this all the time.

    The thread discussion was called "Plumbing Question :)"

    Here I finally found a link back to Terry's site : "Any Plumbers care to comment - My toilet waste..." - link posted by another user. This is old the thread

    Another top hit "Plumbing Question" - no link to Terry

    Another thread no link to Terry's "Basement Bath Plumbing Question"

    Here a thread discussing plumbing lines and no mention of the Terry Love Forum - Condo Shower leak
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