Basement Washer Drain - Need help making some decisons on how to best run everything

Discussion in 'Plumbing Forum, Professional & DIY Advice' started by catman, Jan 2, 2013.

  1. catman

    catman New Member

    Messages:
    18
    Location:
    SE PA
    EDIT: PHOTOS ARE IN POST BELOW:

    I am installing a new (2nd) washer in my basement. From where the washer sits I am trying to decide on the best way to drain it. It happens to sit directly below an upstairs washer (maybe a foot to the left of it). All water and waste lines and the main soil stack are copper. There are a few ABS connections where I assume someone added vent lines at some point.

    OPTION 1
    The standpipe for upstairs washer enters the basement into a cast iron trap and extends over 2 feet and then drops again into a horizontal drain line leading to the main soil stack. There is a bathroom sink that drains into the basement about 3 feet away from the wall that bends toward the standpipe trap before making a 90° turn and entering the same horizontal line as the upstairs washer. This is 1.5 inch copper and there is a section right below the trap for upstairs that could cut into and connect a drain for the washer. The problem is that I only have 15 inches from the ceiling to where this connection would enter the hroizontal line. If I leave room for the bend in the washer drain line, that would only leave a realistic 12" standpipe and I am unsure if I could make that work since it would connect into a 1.5 drain pipe. Even if I used 4" standpipe it would have to reduce in such as short run I am not sure it would work.

    Also of note in this option is that there is a 2" vent pipe in the horizontal drain run about 5 feet to the right of where the washer sits, so if I could get the water to drain here I am thinking the venting would be ok to handle the new washer p-trap. Unfortunately, this vent is located right at the top of the basement block so it has two 22.5° connectors with no straight pipe before it dissapears behind the studs and wall. There really is not any way for me to cut into it to merge another vent and still have any place to connect new piping to - I will not have access to be able to glue the new connections.


    OPTION 2
    At some point someone cut into the main 3" copper soil stack about 18" above the basement floor, soldered in a 1 foot run of 1.5 inch copper pipe pipe followed by a 1.5" shut-off valve followed by a 1.5" ABS p-trap and then a 3 foot 2" PVC standpipe for a water softener to drain into. I am guessing the shutoff valve was used so that it could be closed in the event of a sewer line back up. I have no idea why they used an ABS trap with a union piece to a PVC standpipe, but that is what is there.

    From where the washer sits this location is 7 feet to the right, it hits a 90° corner of the basement and then is another 13 feet to the trap.

    If I wanted to use this lower entry into the soil stack, could I just drain the washer using a standpipe without a p-trap, have the line just bend into a horizontal run that connects into a wye in water softener standpipe and use that trap? I am thinking in effect this would almost be the same as directly draining into the softerner standpipe, only it is actually 20 feet away. The 2 would never be in use at the same time. If I used the hose that is already connected to the washer, used 2" PVC with an 18" standpipe and 1/4" per foot slope, this would put the entry into the standpipe about 12" above the trap by the soil stack. Would that be ok?

    My concern is that if I remove the p-trap from next to the soil stack and put it below a basement washer standpipe I would need to vent it and there is no logical connection point (remember, the closest vent out side of the soil stack itself does not appear to be one I can realistically tie into). I guess an air admittance valve could be added, but then what would I do with the water softener drain since that would need to be much closer to the stack?

    Hopefully someone can guide me on the best options here - let me know if I am being unclear - thank you!
    Last edited: Jan 3, 2013
  2. Hammerlane

    Hammerlane Member

    Messages:
    252
    Location:
    Ohio
    You really need to show a diagram and or photos. A picture is worth a 1000 words and all those words above are not forming a picture.
  3. catman

    catman New Member

    Messages:
    18
    Location:
    SE PA
    Sorry, I will get some shots or draw something up.
  4. catman

    catman New Member

    Messages:
    18
    Location:
    SE PA
    Ok, again, sorry for not just waiting until I had some shots. Attached are 3 shots of the basement where the washer is going. I am uncertain of the best way to drain the washer given the situation, whether to try and drain it up into the overhead plumbing or to run new lower plumbing. And after choosing one of those two options, what steps are needed to make it all properly working (venting/traps, etc).

    Putting the pics inline here makes them less legible - it is 96" to the basement ceiling, 80" to the point of possible entry into the 1.5" drain below the trap from the 1st floor washer. 7 feet to the corner and another 13 feet (20 feet total) to the standpipe for the water softener.

    Basement Washer Drain 1.jpg Basement Washer Drain 2.jpg Basement Washer Drain Broad View.jpg
    Last edited: Jan 3, 2013
  5. cacher_chick

    cacher_chick Test, Don't Guess!

    Messages:
    3,249
    Location:
    Land of Cheese
    Here are a few things to think about while you plan your layout. This follows my area plumbing code, and your's might read slightly differently.

    The new washer standpipe must be 2" pipe and be between 18 and 30" in length. The top of the standpipe should be between 26 & 48" from the floor. The trap must be vented within 8 feet of the trap, and this vent must rise vertically from the trap arm at least 42" above grade before any section can run horizontally. Horizontal drains & vents must be pitched to allow drainage. A vent may not connect to any another fixture's drain.
    These are the minimum requirements for an approved installation.

    Once you have sorted this out, draw out a plumbing diagram of your plan and post it so we that can better see your intentions.
  6. catman

    catman New Member

    Messages:
    18
    Location:
    SE PA
    Ok, I was guessing there was not a way for me to get the washer to drain up into the existing plumbing near the ceiling as there is not enough room for a proper length standpipe.

    Let's assume our plumbing codes are the same for the moment. I have entry into the soil stack at 18" off the floor 20 feet away from where I want the washer. If I add 5 inches for slope over that distance, I would have the pipe running at 23" where the trap exits and that seems to leave plenty of room for the standpipe. If I understand correctly, I would need to put a T in the line about 6 feet to the right and run it straight up the existing the black ABS vent pipe shown below?

    If I do that, what about the water softener standpipe? Do I drop it into its own trap, run short horizontal stem and then drop it into the washer drain run? If it is close enough to the soil stack, does it realitically needs its own vent?

    Basement Washer Drain Vent.jpg
    Softener Drain.jpg
  7. cacher_chick

    cacher_chick Test, Don't Guess!

    Messages:
    3,249
    Location:
    Land of Cheese
    The black pipe looks like it is serving another fixture above, which means you cannot connect to it in the basement.

    The softener will need a trap and vent also. The "soil pipe" is a drain coming down from above, not a vent. It can only be considered a vent above the highest fixture connected.

    Vents can only be connected together above the flood rim of the highest fixture served by the stack. (At least 6" above the flood rim, or 42" above the floor, whichever is higher.)
  8. Terry

    Terry Administrator Staff Member

    Messages:
    15,129
    Location:
    Bothell, Washington
    Yup!

    Any standpipe with p-trap will need to be vented.

    A washer standpipe and trap is 2", vented with 1.5" within 60" (five feet) of the trap.
    A 1.5 standpipe with trap, vented within 42"
  9. catman

    catman New Member

    Messages:
    18
    Location:
    SE PA

    This is not 100% clear to me. Are you saying the black pipe looks like it is a drain from above or are you saying that because it is venting fixtures above, I cannot connect to it below those fixtures?

    If it is the latter, then I would have to run a new vent line up to the first floor and connect to the pipe above the flood level of those fixtures? That seems like too much wall destruction for a seldomly used washer in the basement. Functionally speaking, which would vent better, connecting to the 2" black vent pipe in the basement or using an AAV vent on the line in the basement?
    Last edited: Jan 3, 2013
  10. cacher_chick

    cacher_chick Test, Don't Guess!

    Messages:
    3,249
    Location:
    Land of Cheese
    We are not permitted to connect to a vent below the flood rim of the fixtures because it could easily become blocked.

    You will need a vent for the basement to have any properly connected drain. If you wanted to connect it to that black pipe, you will have to open the wall in the upper floor.
    There is not much trouble in running a new vent into the attic. I drill the top and bottom plates of an interior wall and run it straight up. With some careful measuring in a single story, the wall does not need to be opened up to do this. Once in the attic it can either go through the roof or be tied into an existing vent in the attic which does go through the roof.

    I would never consider an AAV where an atmospheric vent can be properly installed, and most inspectors would not either.
  11. hj

    hj Moderator & Master Plumber Staff Member

    Messages:
    26,831
    Location:
    Cave Creek, Arizona
    To put it as succinctly as possible, there is no pipe at the ceiling of your basement that you can connect your washer vent into. IF you were to connect the washer to the overhead piping, that would be a "prime location" for water from upstairs to overflow into the basement. Even the softener drain is NOT proper according to the plumbing codes.
  12. catman

    catman New Member

    Messages:
    18
    Location:
    SE PA
    Got it! Thanks everyone - I think I am getting it, which is why I asked. It's a 2 story house, but the area where the black pipe in the basement would enter into the 2nd floor and roof is behind a closet, so it would not be too problematic to open up if I had to. There are also two 3/4" plastic pipes already extending from the basement straight up to the attic where cable and phone lines were run, so I could possibly use those areas as guides if I wanted run a pipe up in an interior section.
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