Basement toilet - How many LPF and flange question

[Swanny]

Hi,

I'm about to install my toilet in the basement. It is an American Standard Cadet III 13.2L one I bought from Home Depot. My wife has a home daycare so the toilet will be used by up to 6 kids every day. And if you know young kids they can "have to go pee" sometimes a few times per hour. This toilet will see some serious use ;-)

Two questions:
1) I was told not to go with a "low flow" toilet in the basement. I specifically made sure it wasn't a 6L toilet although I would much rather have a 6L one. The piping is 3", house constructed in 2007. I'm using an inside fit closet flange (I know, I know... but cement was poured right up to the pipe so I have to make do). So my question here is:
- Since it's a basement toilet should I use the 12L toilet or should I go for a 6L one? I don't really know why I was recommended not to go for a regular flow toilet other than maybe the increased amount of water may push the waste further down the pipe....? Hell if I could I'd use a dual flush toilet 4/6L for water conservation... Thoughs, advice?

2) The inside fit closet flange is the type that spins once it's glued down. That is, the outer ring can be rotated and then screwed down. Currently it's configured so the bolts aren't perfectly aligned to be parallel with the wall. Is that going to be a problem? I can fix it but if I don't have to I'd like to just leave it. I'm attaching a pic that should help...

Thanks!

 

[Gary Swart]

I'm afraid this is going to rain on your parade, but you asked for advice and here it is. First of all, you can not legally buy and install an old style full flow toilet. If you did find one, it would not pass a code inspection which, because your are in a licensed business, you have to have. Depending on your local codes, it may very well be illegal to DIY this project anyway. Secondly, you have selected a dog of a toilet. The professional plumbers on this forum specifically avoid the AS toilets almost to a man. A cheap toilet is not a wise investment. My recommendation would be a Toto Drake, either the original 1.6L or the newer 1.28L. You do not need a power assist or high volume toilet. The flange could be a problem. Because the flange was improperly installed, indicates the original installation was a hack job. You might be able to use a thick wax ring and get a good seal, but the off set flange bolts could be a problem. On the plus side, since the old toilet apparently was held down OK, perhaps a new toilet will also. I strong urge you to consult your local laws regarding making this a DIY job.

 

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[Terry]

There are plumbers that don't like the inside flange, because it reduces the diameter.

However, the Cadet III, has an outlet of 2-1/8"
I don't see a problem.
I've installed the Cadet III and the Toto Drake in Daycares.
You should be fine.
I'm getting more repeat business from the Drakes then from the Cadets in the same daycares.

Older toilets would have had a larger outlet, that would be an issue with them.

 

[Swanny]

Thanks guys. FYI, there is no existing toilet, this is a basement development (mine). I have only put in 2 bolts on the flange, I can easily rotate it a few degrees if necessary to fix it.

 

[Gary Swart]

I will repeat my concern about the legality of your DIY project in a licensed day care. I suspect you have not pulled permits for this work, and there are State and Federal requirements that if not followed could go so far as closing the business and levying fines. It seems to me that it would be very prudent to verify what you are doing is legal.

 

[Swanny]

Thanks Gary. The daycare is not licensed, I'll spare you the details but you don't have to be licensed in this province to run a home-based daycare. I did pull a permit for the electrical and I didn't need one for other reasons for putting up the interior walls. The plubming I'm not sure on off-hand.

p.s. I plan on returning the 13.2LPF toilet to get a 6L or 4/6L version.

 

[Micp879]

Based on Swanny using the word "province", I assume this house is in Canada, which potentially changes the requirements for low flush toilets. Also, Gary make sure not to confuse Gallons (G) with liters (L). Last I checked, the USA requirement was 1.6G per flush, not 1.6L. If he were to buy a 1.6L toilet like you are telling him, he would run into two problems. 1) As far as I know, no such thing exists. 2) Even if it did exist, a 1.6L toilet would translate to 0.4G, which I dont see providing much of a water spot, and I sure as heck dont see it using enough water to flush anything lol.

So if he were to buy the 6L toilet he is now talking about, that would translate to a 1.6G toilet.

 

[Gary Swart]

Yep, my bad and I did use L instead of G. I do know better. And, I with it clarified that this is Canadian, then of course US laws don't apply. I guess we all assume that questions come of USA unless otherwise noted in the post.

 

[SteveW]

Would certainly save time and trouble if posters from outside the US would so specify up front...

 

[Swanny]

Steve, I think US folks should tell me up front too that they're American. That would help me convert to Litres ;-) LOL

 

[Swanny]

...2) The inside fit closet flange is the type that spins once it's glued down. That is, the outer ring can be rotated and then screwed down. Currently it's configured so the bolts aren't perfectly aligned to be parallel with the wall. Is that going to be a problem? I can fix it but if I don't have to I'd like to just leave it. I'm attaching a pic that should help...

Thanks!

Does anyone have a thought on this? How critical is it that the bolts are parallel to the wall? I can easily rotate it and fix it but if I don't have to I won't. I set the toilet on (without the wax seal) and the bolts will still line up fine, they're off maybe a half inch or so... Thx.

 

[Jadnashua]

As long as you can put the bolts in the slots so they won't come loose (i.e., out the key end), the fact they aren't exactly at the end of the track isn't a huge deal. You'd probably have trouble drilling a new hole so close to the others as well. Note, it's really a good idea to use all of the holes to mount the flange...they put them in there for a reason. You especially want them on either side of the closet bolt holes.

 

[Swanny]

Thanks Jim. I only put two concrete screws in to start just for fitment and stuff. I'll drill some more holes and at least do the 2 on either sides of the mounting bolts. This forum is great!!!

 

[Swanny]

OK, I was able to return the original Cadet III 13.2 LITER bowl & tank for a Cadet 3 6 LITER kit. The new bowl doesn't wobble on the flat floor anymore, bonus! It will still need a shim or two due to the tall flange (the toilet sits higher behind the flange and touching the floor at the front), but that's OK.

For some odd reason there are Cadet III (roman numeral 3) and Cadet 3 (number) toilets. We'll give the Cadet 3 a go and see how she works ;-)

Thanks everyone, I think my problems are behind me now that I have a better toilet.

 

[Swanny]

The toilet install went very well. The toilet is level side-to-side but the front is a smidge lower than the back. Oh well, it's down, solid (I used wobble wedges) sealed it up except at the back. I filled it up and there are no leaks.

I am impressed with the toilet. It's fast and quiet compared to the two Crane 6L toilets we have upstairs. Even my wife likes it and two days ago she couldn't care less about the toilet, now she is almost enthusiastic. Wow.

Thanks for all your help guys.

Oh, and FYI, I bought the toilet kit that includes the wax seal, seat, etc. The wax seal included that plastic funnel in it. Those shouldn't even be produced anymore as far as I'm concerned. If any other DIY'ers read this, throw that funnel wax ring out and get one without, it's only another $0.99.

 

[Peanut9199]

In Ontario Canada you can still use a 13L toilet for "Replacement" toilet but for new installations (new housing) or building a new bathroom you should be getting a permit and you legally need to use a 6L toilet.