bar sink and urinal installation in basement

Discussion in 'Plumbing Forum, Professional & DIY Advice' started by indyjps, Jun 7, 2006.

  1. indyjps

    indyjps mechanical engineer

    Messages:
    18
    Location:
    indianapolis (fishers) indiana
    finishing out my basement and wanted to add a bar sink and most likley a urinal. can i use just a sump and pump/ grey water set up. they should both be mounted at a height that would allow me not to cut the floor out for the sump, if the correct sump is chosen.
    the advice i have gotten is that the grey water setup will be ok as long as its vented into the rest of the house. do i need to vent through the roof or can i tie into another toilet vent? can i vent out the side of the house? the only routing i can find is to run a line down the wall into the attic and tie into an existing vent through roof but im going to be very close to over the 40 foot mark. how much fall do i need in the system. thanks for any help guys, the venting has brought my project to a screeching halt.
  2. jadnashua

    jadnashua Retired Defense Industry Engineer xxx

    Messages:
    22,313
    Location:
    New England
    The vent to the roof can be any length, it just needs to be sized appropriately for the maximum flow. Whether you can tie into the existing vent instead of making a new penetration of the roof would depend on how close that vent was to the maximum. On the waste side, as long as the pipes can be sloped down to the sump at 1/4"/foot, it should work.

    If you connect to an existing vent, it must be above the water line of the highest fixture vented by that line. The waste must be pumped to the sewer line.
    Last edited: Jun 7, 2006
  3. Lakee911

    Lakee911 I&C Engineer (mostly WWTP)

    Messages:
    1,328
    Location:
    Columbus, OH
    Look into an air admittance valve for your venting.

    Are you referring to a "sump" and (dewatering) pump as in the ones to carry ground water away from your foundation for draining your urinal?

    Jason
  4. indyjps

    indyjps mechanical engineer

    Messages:
    18
    Location:
    indianapolis (fishers) indiana
    sorry for the confusion about the "sump", im not running it into the basement/foundation pit. going to buy a proper grey water pump and basin or possibly a laundry style evacuation set up and hook into main sewer line. i got lucky and its directly above the location of the urinal.
    what size line is required for venting, 1 inch, 1 1/2 inch, it looks like ill be running up thru the wall into the attic and hooking into one of the existing vents. the fall i was asking about was the vapor line, is there a required amount of fall to properly vent.

    Lakee911, by air admittance valve do you mean a check valve to allow air in and not out, would this be to code considering i am using the sump for both grey water (sink) and sewage (urinal). ive used the check valves before on my previous older home to cure slow sink/comode drainage.
    Last edited: Jun 8, 2006
  5. jadnashua

    jadnashua Retired Defense Industry Engineer xxx

    Messages:
    22,313
    Location:
    New England
    The aav cannot be the only vent in the system, but it can substitute for the local connection to it. The horizontal portions of the vent pipe up may have requirements for slope, but I don't think it is critical unless it is also used as a wet vent (serves two purposes). Somebody will know.
  6. indyjps

    indyjps mechanical engineer

    Messages:
    18
    Location:
    indianapolis (fishers) indiana
    thanks for the reply, i was just going to give it as much fall as i could about 10 inches (joist) over a 10 ft span then up thru the wall and approx 45 degree into existing vent in attic tying in as high as possible, should be ok to vent gases.
  7. jadnashua

    jadnashua Retired Defense Industry Engineer xxx

    Messages:
    22,313
    Location:
    New England
    You never need more than 1/4" per foot, so no need to go overboard. There should be nothing but air in there anyways...
  8. prashster

    prashster New Member

    Messages:
    941
    Gasses don't require the slope to vent. The slope is required to allow any inadvertant water to drain back to an outlet. The slope (in some areas) can be as slight as 1/8".
    You'd be surprised how much condensation the warm air from your basement creates when it hits the cold attic and the air above yr house. If you have no slope, your pipe will collect standing water. It happened to me.

    Make sure vent has no lowspots either.
  9. Lakee911

    Lakee911 I&C Engineer (mostly WWTP)

    Messages:
    1,328
    Location:
    Columbus, OH
    In a vent, too much slope would do no harm, but in a drain wouldn't you have to keep it 1/8" to 1/4"? IIRC, wouldn't the water run off so quickly it wouldn't take any solids (toothpaste, TP, waste, disposer grindings, grit, dirt, etc) with it?

    Good to hear you're not draining it into the ground water sump! I was like ... 'Uhh that's gonna smell and not be very santary.'

    Jason
  10. prashster

    prashster New Member

    Messages:
    941
    I thought the same thing about slope in the drains, but a coupla pros here said it's an old wives' tale or is only an issue in larger diameter, concrete pipes with more friction.

    My inspector made me decrease a 45 deg slope to .25"/ft, though. He felt 1/8" was too shallow. IMHO, aim for 1/4" and you'll have no problem (in theory, or in an inspection).
  11. indyjps

    indyjps mechanical engineer

    Messages:
    18
    Location:
    indianapolis (fishers) indiana
    thanks for the help guys, now i can run my vent, and feel safe about it. then the search for an appropriate pump begins.
  12. URINAL only in basement??

    I am just wondering why you want to install a

    urinal in the basement???


    Are you installing a watering hole type of bar
    with a mens room or some sort of "guys only"

    type of bathroom???


    I think you are not intedning on breaking up the floor and putting a
    real pit in concrete.... are planning to install a toilet???
    correct.....??


    whatever floats your boat.....


    if you do this to your basement, remember , its probably not going to
    help the resale value of the house someday...


    ladies generally frown on urinals in the only bathroom available.

    they dont find them too "femmine "
    Last edited: Jun 10, 2006
  13. indyjps

    indyjps mechanical engineer

    Messages:
    18
    Location:
    indianapolis (fishers) indiana
    my initial thought was a much easier install with a urinal and bar sink. i reconsidered and was making preparations to do a regualr toilet. I found out im being transferred for work very shortly so i just need to get something working so its back to a urinal.
    do you think I'd be better off leaving the sink roughed in and not installing the urinal or toilet and letting new owner decide or just plumbing the urinal. resale wise.
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