banded coupling from 1-1/4 copper

Discussion in 'Plumbing Forum, Professional & DIY Advice' started by gardner, Nov 23, 2008.

  1. gardner

    gardner DIY Senior Member

    Messages:
    224
    Location:
    Ontario
    I was in the midst of hooking up my new sink when I realized the chromed copper trap arm was disintegrating. I couldn't believe how rotten it was at the bottom where it entered the next fitting.

    As everything in this house, it was assembled in some arcane way that could not be easily fixed. In this case the trap arm was soldered into a bushing of some sort which had been screwed (and then soldered) into a 1-1/4 brass threaded coupling.

    So I've opened up the wall a bit more and found a clean and evidently sound 1-1/4 horizontal run of copper. I plan to take a hacksaw to it and then use a banded coupling to hook it to something modern. Only I can't seem to find a banded coupling that will go from 1-1/4 copper to 1-1/4 ABS. Am I missing something? Neither Fernco nor Mission seem to have such an item.

    The next question, is what is the accepted modern-day fitting to put on the end that comes out of the wall? Should this be a 1-1/4 slip joint?

    If I use the 1-1/4 to 1-1/2 banded coupling, then I will have a 6 inch run of 1-1/2 ABS, an elbow to come out the wall, another stub of pipe and a slip joint connector. That seem right?

    Thanks.
  2. Basement_Lurker

    Basement_Lurker One who lurks

    Messages:
    668
    Location:
    Victoria, BC
    A rollee zip II pk-4030 coupling is what you are after.

    If all you have in the wall is a 90 elbow instead of a tee fitting, then you have an "s-trap" which is a no-no, and you should have this drain plumbed in properly now with a vent since you have things exposed.
  3. gardner

    gardner DIY Senior Member

    Messages:
    224
    Location:
    Ontario
    Thanks! Looks like a PK3030 is 1-1/4 to 1-1/4.

    The run after the elbow is _horizontal_ (pitched) towards a 2-inch pipe which I know to be running vertically in the wall a couple of feet away. It _does not_ go straight down , which is, I believe what an S-trap is.
  4. Basement_Lurker

    Basement_Lurker One who lurks

    Messages:
    668
    Location:
    Victoria, BC
    After re-reading your post a couple of times, I think I understand what you are talking about a bit better.

    You should stick with 1.25" ABS since you only have 1.25" copper, but it's ok to jump up to 1.5" ABS if you don't have availability of 1.25" ABS tubing and fittings at your hardware store.

    You should cut that copper run, use a shielded coupling to adapt to ABS, run the line into the cabinet, use an elbow fitting if necessary to get the p-trap positioned properly under the sink tailpiece, and then use the appropriate trap adapter fitting. It's a pretty standard installation that you are doing.
  5. Cass

    Cass Plumber

    Messages:
    5,980
    Location:
    Ohio
    Is this the kitchen sink with a window over it?

    If so that 90 and horizontal pipe in the wall will head over to a T with a vent and drain...

    If it is a bathroom it maybe heading over to the stack behind the toilet...

    Most of the S trap set ups I have seen run vertically not horizontally.
    Last edited: Nov 24, 2008
  6. gardner

    gardner DIY Senior Member

    Messages:
    224
    Location:
    Ontario
    Thanks guys.

    It's a powder room and the 2-inch stack just to the right of the sink is, I believe, also a wet vent to the toilet in this power room. Why it is not exactly behind the sink, I do not know -- maybe because the builder framed a medicine cabinet above the sink -- but it is just a couple of feet to the side. I am confident there is no problem with that part of the plumbing.

    This isn't under a cabinet, but is under a wall-hung sink. The space is just too darned small for a cabinet. Details in this thread over in the remodel forum:

    http://www.terrylove.com/forums/showthread.php?t=24410

    I will want a chrome trap arm and potentially a bottle trap or something. The next question I have is what sort of fitting should go on the end of the ABS where it penetrates the wall to facilitate attaching a chrome trap arm? Will that be a 1-1/4 slip-fit fitting?

    If I put a 1-1/4 slip fit adapter, does the ABS pipe stub need to be 1-1/2 to facilitate having the trap arm slip inside the ABS?
  7. hj

    hj Moderator & Master Plumber Staff Member

    Messages:
    27,026
    Location:
    Cave Creek, Arizona
    drain

    Are you sure it is 1 1/4" copper". That size is almost unheard of for drainage purposes. It would usually be 1 1/2" which is the same size as 1 1/4" steel pipe. That is a "solder bushing" and all you have to do is carefully cut it out and then screw in either a 1 1/2" nipple with a female 1 1/2 x 1/1/4 "marvel/de sanko/trap adapter" on the end, or a male one directly into the elbow. Doing anything else will be wasting time and money, plus give you a bad drain.
  8. gardner

    gardner DIY Senior Member

    Messages:
    224
    Location:
    Ontario
    Hi there,

    I put my calipers around it and it measures the exact same O/D as the 1-1/4 copper in my local hardware store -- who do not have a banded coupling to fit.

    The elbow at the wall has what appears to be a threaded hub in it and looks to have been filled with a solder bushing as you say. I thought I could just unscrew it as well.

    It is altogether too frozen up to work on. I was unable to back the bushing out and attempts to cut it from the inside with a dremel and tear it out that way reveal that the brass bushing appears to have been sweated into the threaded hub. At this stage there's no way I will get the threads clean enough to accept a trap adapter again.

    I feel that my choices are to:

    (1) Cut it off and transition to ABS.

    (2) pull off the elbow and sweat on a new elbow and functional fitting.

    While I am normally not at all shy of sweating even big stuff, this one is inside a wall cavity the other side of which is wood paneling and I will have very little room to work. I anticipate setting fire to my house if I get in there with a torch. I could magnify the scope of this project further by pulling paneling off the wall on the other side, but I would prefer not.

    And why necessarily a "bad drain?" A banded coupling of the right size is suitable for closing in a wall and won't in general cause any problems. The ABS part should wind up being just like any of 1,000s installed every day.

    I can take some pictures if there's any doubt about the fitting I'm having trouble with.
  9. hj

    hj Moderator & Master Plumber Staff Member

    Messages:
    27,026
    Location:
    Cave Creek, Arizona
    coupling

    And where are you going to get a 1 1/4" ABS or even PVC elbow or trap connector? The bad drain will come in when you use 1 1/2" and reduce it to connect to the 1 1/4". From your sentence I assume the tubing is 1. 375 o.d.
  10. gardner

    gardner DIY Senior Member

    Messages:
    224
    Location:
    Ontario
    Thanks hj,

    These things are readily available in this town. I happen to have 1-1/2 stuff ready to go, but 1-1/4 pipe, elbows and trap adapters are easily obtainable. I held the parts in my hand yesterday, but based on the availability of the banded coupling I decided to leave them.

    Understood. Based on the comments of someone else I thought jumping to 1-1/2 would not be the end of the world. One nice thing is that 1-1/2 has room for the chrome part of the trap arm to penetrate down into the fitting giving a little more convenience in positioning.

    I was having trouble finding a 1-1/4 Cu --> 1-1/4 ABS banded coupling -- which is where this all started. If all I can get is a 1-1/4 Cu --> 1-1/2 ABS then that will pretty well constrain things.

    1-3/8 OD, yes.


    ------------- Edit -----------------

    Just got back from the best stocked plumbing supply I could find. All I can get is a 1-1/4 Cu --> 1-1/2 ABS. I guess I will have a "bad drain".

    I anticipate wanting to move the supplies around within the next year to change out the sink for a sleeker one. I can attack this issue again then.
    Last edited: Nov 25, 2008
  11. Terry

    Terry Administrator Staff Member

    Messages:
    15,289
    Location:
    Bothell, Washington
    1-1/4" copper pipe.

    One time I used a 1-1/4" male adapter on a street 90 el for a lav drain.
    Not really the right fitting, but I was able to hook up the lav.
    With the Male Adpater, I was able to use the slip joint nut for the p-trap.
  12. gardner

    gardner DIY Senior Member

    Messages:
    224
    Location:
    Ontario
    So it was you Terry! I didn't know you worked in Ontario in the early sixties. :rolleyes:
  13. Basement_Lurker

    Basement_Lurker One who lurks

    Messages:
    668
    Location:
    Victoria, BC
    Code in Canada still allows 1.25" to be ran for a single basin like a lav sink, and it used to be commonly done, so you would have been fine to rebuild the drain as such gardner. However these days, nobody uses 1.25" dwv anymore, everyone uses 1.5" minimum.
  14. gardner

    gardner DIY Senior Member

    Messages:
    224
    Location:
    Ontario
    Thanks Sanjeev.

    I will try and order a 1-1/4 --> 1-1/4 part and keep it on hand for when I re-do the sink.

    For now it is done and in service.
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