Bad flush w/no vent

Discussion in 'Toilet Forum discussions' started by speedbump, Apr 18, 2006.

  1. speedbump

    speedbump Previous member

    Messages:
    4,540
    Location:
    Riverview, Fl.
    I brought this problem up here before. Since every one says a toilet won't work without a vent. I will agree. However the toilet does flush sometimes quite well. The floor the toilet sits on is 8" of concrete. I've been there with a jackhammer in the past. There is no way to install a vent without tearing up a lot of this floor which I am unwilling to do. I don't know why this unit was installed this way, but it's what I have to deal with.

    I managed to find the 3" pipe leading to the tank about 3 feet from an outside wall 10 feet from the stool. I cut a 1-1/2" round hole in the top and inserted a short piece of PVC pipe into it. This provides the only vent in the entire line.

    My question: Which low flow toilet would work the best to not cure but possibly improve this situation. I don't know what brand toilet I have now but it is 3+ gallon flush.

    I am going to order one from Terry, but I want to get the best option possible.

    Thanks in advance.

    bob...
  2. Cass

    Cass Plumber

    Messages:
    5,980
    Location:
    Ohio
    I like the Caromas, they have a 4" trapway may help with the no vent problem, but what ever you get I would get a dual flush.

    Many of the people who I have sold Caromas to tell me that the 1/2 flush works reguardless for both.

    You may find that a 1/2 flush will work all the time or worst case you do 2, 1/2 flushes.
    Last edited: Apr 18, 2006
  3. speedbump

    speedbump Previous member

    Messages:
    4,540
    Location:
    Riverview, Fl.
    Is this a Toto brand? Since I am a well guy, I'm not real up on toilets (thank God).

    This whole installation is a botched job. But I bought the house this way. This is the pool house that is two story, has a bathroom on the lower level where this stool is. The bathroom used to be much smaller until we took out a closet and added a shower which I plumbed into the tank with a different pipe to the tank. It works great. The toilet is the only problem and is only used during partys etc. And I don't have to tell you how that goes with this toilet. They still haven't built a plunger that will do it with just one push.

    bob...
  4. Try venting from the top, with a rear discharge bowl

    Bob

    Try this: get a rear discharge toilet, and then place it slightly farther forward than the existing one, and then your NEW vent can come down from above.

    Rear discharge can be either a wall-mount or a floor-mount (rarer animals, these). A wall-mount toilet can take as little as 26 inches total space front to back including the tank. And you can even position the toilet differently, like on a 45 degree angle, or 90 degrees. In case you want to change the layout too.

    David
  5. Cass

    Cass Plumber

    Messages:
    5,980
    Location:
    Ohio
    Caroma is a brand. They are made in Australia.

    Google the name Caroma Tasman 270 or Caroma Caravelle 270.

    Tasman and Caravelle are about the same but the Tasman has a plastic tank and is less $$$$. Caravelle has a ceramic tank. Both have a 4" trapway but small water spot.

    I think Terry carrys them also.
  6. speedbump

    speedbump Previous member

    Messages:
    4,540
    Location:
    Riverview, Fl.
    This sounds good guys. So how do I work the vent? I'm not with you on that part. I wouldn't mind getting into the wall behind it if necessary to install one. (Well I would mind, but if that is what it takes, I'll do it)

    I'll go have a look at the tank.

    bob...
  7. speedbump

    speedbump Previous member

    Messages:
    4,540
    Location:
    Riverview, Fl.
    Now for the other kink. The bathroom fixtures are all black. Sink, toilet, towel racks, paper hanger etc. What do you think the little woman is going to say when I install a bisquit colored toilet? They don't have them in Black. Just my luck. Any other suggestions are greatly appreciated.

    bob...
  8. Mick Jagger said to paint it black

    Bob

    Geberit has three different in-wall carrier systems (almost identical) that carry wall-hung toilet bowls made by a dozen other manufacturers.

    You'll find one black. Or paint it black.

    The Tessera model bowl is Geberit's own, and it must be located directly above the hole in the floor. The other carrier models can be situated wherever you want to, and you direct the drain to the hole in the floor using bends / elbows.

    You can also get a floor toilet with a rear discharge, made by various US manufacturers. Some condo buildings have only this type of toilet, since the drains were designed to be in the "common property" space inside extra large wall cavities.

    Hope this helps.

    David
  9. speedbump

    speedbump Previous member

    Messages:
    4,540
    Location:
    Riverview, Fl.
    David,

    What would be involved in making a wall able to hold the toilet and a say 300 lb. guest?

    bob...
  10. Terry

    Terry Administrator Staff Member

    Messages:
    15,129
    Location:
    Bothell, Washington
    Toillets will siphon without the vent I'm told.

    Since you added one ten feet downline, it may be vented anyway.
    The vents are normally done within six feet.

    Since the toilet works some of the time well, and somtimes not, I would think that a repair of the toilet, or a new one would do just fine.

    There are many toilets that would work well for you.
  11. speedbump

    speedbump Previous member

    Messages:
    4,540
    Location:
    Riverview, Fl.
    Can you recommend one for me. I have seen so many in your store, that I don't know where to start. Knowing my problem and the way this thing has been acting, can you recommend one that might be the best for the job?

    bob...
  12. Terry

    Terry Administrator Staff Member

    Messages:
    15,129
    Location:
    Bothell, Washington
    You can't go wrong with the Toto Drake.
    and a few others, Caroma, Aquia, Ultramax, Dalton, Gerber Ultraflush
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2009
  13. Unclear to start with

    Bob,

    Tell me what tank you mean.

    Where is the closest vent to the toilet? Downstream, I presume. How far? What else is connected? Where, how? Please.

    David
  14. hj

    hj Moderator & Master Plumber Staff Member

    Messages:
    26,831
    Location:
    Cave Creek, Arizona
    toilets

    Toilets will flush without a vent, and sometimes better without one, but the air in the pipe has to have some way to escape as the water tries to displace it. Without any air outlet, and with a closed system such as a septic tank, most 1.6gpf toilets cannot create the pressure needed to overcome the backpressure. If the hole in the pipe allows the toilet to flush properly, and it should if the only problem is the lack of a vent, then a riser pipe anywhere in the system is all you need. Otherwise, you do not have a vent problem and have to locate the real cause of the non-flushing.
  15. speedbump

    speedbump Previous member

    Messages:
    4,540
    Location:
    Riverview, Fl.
    I'm not sure what you mean by what tank David. The vent is downstream about ten feet from the toilet and 20 feet before the septic tank. It is a hole in a 3" pipe with a piece of 1-1/2" pipe sticking up above ground. No restrictions there. I just checked it the other day. The 3" pipe was nearly empty when I checked. I really think the main problem is this old low flow toilet. I think it was bought around the time they became mandatory and hadn't been improved on yet.

    My vent should do what you suggested HJ, so I'm going to order a Toto and check for any restrictions when I remove the old one.

    I'll let you all know how it goes. I'm going to go spend money in Terry's store.

    bob...
  16. speedbump

    speedbump Previous member

    Messages:
    4,540
    Location:
    Riverview, Fl.
    I called Terry and he doesn't ship because of UPS breaking so many toilets. I can sympathize with him. UPS has broken lots of our items. Mostly in the northeast for some reason (Unions???). We are using DHL now.

    Anyway, I called a local supplier that we deal with once in a blue moon. They said at first a Black Toto would be 3 months out. Then he tapped a few keys on his key board and found one in Sarasota. I'll have it in a few days. I hate to tell y'all what I paid for it, since I don't buy from these guys a lot and sort of compete with them as well.

    After the install, I'll post back with the results, since I know y'all are dying to hear the outcome.

    bob...
  17. Cass

    Cass Plumber

    Messages:
    5,980
    Location:
    Ohio
    Go ahead, tell us what you paid, I'm interested
  18. speedbump

    speedbump Previous member

    Messages:
    4,540
    Location:
    Riverview, Fl.
    Including around $45.00 freight, right at $400.00. This includes some kind of special toilet seat cover that doesn't slam shut or something like that. Maybe you have heard of it, I sure haven't. I always just let it slam.
    I guess if I were a midget, that might be a good idea.

    bob...
  19. Cass

    Cass Plumber

    Messages:
    5,980
    Location:
    Ohio
    That doesn't seem to bad of a price in order to keep peace in the house :)
  20. speedbump

    speedbump Previous member

    Messages:
    4,540
    Location:
    Riverview, Fl.
    I hadn't thought of it that way, but you have a very good point. I don't know if this will renew my marriage of 30 + years, but it sure can't hurt.

    bob...
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