Backflow valves - Why?

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Themp

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The city requires me to have a back flow valve on my sprinkler system. It has to be inspected every three years. They also at the time I built my house required me to have back flow preventers on the outside faucets.

The three year inspection on the sprinkler system back flow value is very important to them, has to be done by a licensed plumber or your sprinkler system is shutdown. Will not get into those sprinkler systems on a separate meter that the city locks, and those that are on the main house meter that they just see that the homeowner turned off using the shutoff valve from the main. Meaning those that are not on a separate meter can turn on their system again without the city really knowing. Thus, their inspection process is so full of holes, anyone can get around them. Or a neighbor can put in their own sprinkler system and bypass the backflow valve all together because no one knows about it.

So, my questions are:

Why is this backflow valves(outside faucets/sprinklers) really needed? Most neigbhors backflow preventers on the house faucets have failed and the city does not care about this. They only care about the sprinkler system backflow valve. If would seem to me that a backflow on the outside faucet is more important than the sprinkler system because the faucet can be left on and water sucked back from the hose. Where in the sprinkler system that is not leaking, no water is past the turn on valves for the zone(unless the zone is running at the time). It just seems to me the city makes a mountain out of a mole hill on the sprinkler system backflow valve. How often does this backflow happen in a city system? What is the difference between the outside hose backflow and a sprinkler system backflow. Which can be worst? The city sends me very detailed letters about this hazards in the sprinkler system but overall does not really care to make sure a backflow cannot happen from the outside faucets. The chances of me leaving the outside faucet on is high too, so this makes it worst in my mind.

Sorry for such a long post on this, just been bugging me...
 

Ballvalve

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We all survived for many decades without any residential backflow protection. Then again, few if any had sprinkler systems.

Its just about big brother creating hazards to keep their jobs and make our life more expensive without reason.

If the big government wanted to save a life, the enviroment and reduce the import deficit, They would get all kids off of ATV's and scooters and go carts, give them a rollbar and a seat belt. That at least would have a practical savings of paraplegics.

Then they can make importers certify and inspect all of the foodstuffs, toys and Watts supply lines entering the country. No more lead and melamine and cockroaches in our chinese crackers!

And suddenly the importers would make that stuff HERE for the same cost.

THEN we have a government we can be proud of and plumbing we can depend on.

Just for fun, ask the county at a public board meeting for statistics on how many lives and sickness was saved since the advent of their backflow inspection law.
 
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Gary Swart

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Yes, back flow valves, sometimes called, "anti-siphon valves", are really needed. Placed between the city main and your irrigation system, they keep contaminated water from your irrigation system from getting into the city (and your) water lines. Since they are mechanical devices, they can, and do, need to be tested and repaired occasionally. My city does the first inspection on a new installation, but requires annual re-certification by a qualified and licensed private inspector who will repair them when needed. The penalty for failing to comply is simple: the city shuts your water off. There is no income to the city for this. The $35 to $50 inspection fee is paid to the inspector. I think your city should tighten the inspection requirement.
 

Gary Swart

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Ballvalve's arguement begs the question. This is not about seat belts, ATV's, toys, foodstuffs, lead, melamine, cockroaches, chinese crackers, or Watts supply lines. The "many decades" we survives with back flow preventers is overstated. I earlier times, irrigation water was usually supplied separately from domestic water. Today, many of us tap into our city's domestic water supply lines. The danger of cross-contamination is greatly increased. For example, dogs in the yard do their business on top of a sprinkler head. This can contaminate the water remaining in the sprinkler line which can be siphoned into the city main. How often it happens is not the point. The point is, it can happen. Individual cities regulate this requirment differently, but as I stated in my previous reply, the City of Yakima, Washington does not profit by this at all. The inspection fee is paid to the private inspector and there is no kick-back to the city. Are the things Ballvalve cites important issues? Yes! But, they are totally separate and unrelated issues to back-flow prevention.
 

Hairyhosebib

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Backflow prevention is all about the WHAT IF's in the plumbing system. Cross connections can be serious too. When I first started working at ASU. My boss sent me to backflow school. I actually passed the test the first time, but not by much. The test is pretty hard. I grew up on a small farm in Indiana that had a hand dug well. A few times a year Dad would take the cement lid off and dip out the dead mice. This is the water we grew up drinking and had our Saturday night baths in so we would be clean to go to church the next morning. There was no water filter either. Dad had a new home built in 1976. When the builder found out he was drinking that water, he actually threw up, poor guy. A new well and softener were part of the new home. My parents are in their 80's now, I will soon be 53.
Hey Gary, You are from Yakimaw. Have you ever been to a place called Mel's hole and thrown junk down in it? Do you know Mel Waters? I think that was his name. He did an interview with Art Bell years ago and the Army showed up 3 days later and took over his property. He sold it to the government and went to Australia. I think he might be back in the states again. You can search the topic and read the interview, it's pretty amazing.
 
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Ballvalve

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That must be why your hose bibs had hair on them. From the mice getting sucked backwards up the hose!

If the city wants it's water clean, they can do their OWN backflow preventer at the meter, and perform their OWN inspection as often as they like. At no cost, since you already pay for the water.

After the meter, let the plumber decide whats correct. Backflow on all hosebibs is an onerous and foolish law. Laws need cost/ return analysis. I think that one fails big time.

Dirty spinach KILLS people, not hose bibs.

The latest research is showing that our cult of cleanliness is making kids sick for life. Eating a little dirt and mice and dog poop turns out to build strong bodies. Not many farm kids, wallowing in manure all day, contract Asthma. And no backflow on their barn hoses either.

The kids in the high rise condo's with maids are at greater risk.
 
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Shacko

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ballvalve:

>>>Just for fun, ask the county at a public board meeting for statistics on how many lives and sickness was saved since the advent of their backflow inspection law.<<<

You can't make that argument, you are trying to argue a negative, you can ask for statistics about how many idividuals were sickened or killed due to non backflow protection.

>>>If the city wants it's water clean, they can do their OWN backflow preventer at the meter, and perform their OWN inspection as often as they like. At no cost, since you already pay for the water.<<<

Backflow devices on the city meter would NOT protect YOUR water from contamination!
 

Gary Swart

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Shacko, I will have to disagree with your statement that a backflow device does not protecting MY water. My water supply is teed shortly after passing the meter. One side goes to my home supply, the other side to my irrigation. To reach my irrigation, it must pass through the backflow. Without the backflow, there would be a cross-contamination possibility to my home supply as well as the city main. The other comments are right on.
 

Themp

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Can someone explain how this backflow happens on the city water supply? Does the pressure have to go to zero or less to cause a backflow. Does someone suck water from the city supply at a higher rate than the city can provide? Can a pressure drop just cause it?

So, the problem is that the dog pooping on the sprinkler head contaminates the water from the valve to the head and this water can be sucked back while the valve is open on that zone.
 

Themp

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One other observation, the city changed the code and required all the backflow valves to be raised to one foot above grade. Prior to this we all had our backflow valves in a box underground. Thus, you could leave your system on during the winter, but now they have to be removed and all are connected with two unions. Once disconnected the water sits in both sides and to me can become contaminated. In the spring when the backflow valve is connected again nothing is done to flush the system, so you have a chance to cause a backflow contamination with this old water sitting in the system all winter on the shutoff valve to the backflow valve union that is exposed to open air.
 

Ballvalve

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Well, you sum up my point perfectly: the Gov has its brains in the Toto. Idiocy

And the county cannot answer the question about how many people got sick WITHOUT backflow valves because they have no fricking clue. Ask it as a negative or a positive. Still no statistics.

If they present a few e-coli admissions to the hospital, likely the cook had his fingers in someones butt before making a salad at the local church brekfast. Or the farm workers wiped with their left hand, as is the fashion from their country, and then picked your broccoli.

The procedure to harm a single family RESIDENCE'S occupants from their hoses is an almost impossible odd.

I wonder if all those people wading in the sewage of New Orleans for a month had backflow preventers on their hip boots.

Any regulation writers out there that can tell us how many people were sickened while they dog paddled thru New Orleans muck, and picked the big brown floaters out of their hair?
 
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Esquire

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ballvalve have you ever see blue or green water come out a kitchen sink? See if you can tell me where that came from or do you think it's unlikely for a toilet tank to backflow into the water supply or is glycol always going to stay in the heating pipes only?
 

Themp

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Grumpy Old Man

Just decided to be kind of a pain and emailed our cross flow prevention department at the city:

My question is based on when everyone removes their backflow preventer
during the winter they leave the union from the supply side to the
shutoff valve open to the air. This allows the water to be contaminated
during the winter months as this is exposed to the air. Once the
backflow preventer is re-attached in the Spring this will allow the
contaminated water to be backflowed into the city system or my
house(cross contamination).

I think the city for all its worry about contamination is exposed in
this area and this needs to be addressed. You require us to have a
backflow preventer for water that can be contaminated from the sprinkler
head to the zone valve, but nothing to protect from the open union to
the supply shutoff during the winter.


Their response was:

Yes sir I am very much in agreement with you. We ask that the end be protected when winterized. Usually we see a mixture of duct tape and baggies. As rain collects we know that dogs and other critters looking for water will also help themselves to this pipe opening. We need to do a better job of letting homeowners know about this requirement. This is taught to the testers but we have not done a very good job (due to lack of staff) of getting this information out to the public. I have put it on my list of things to do.

Thank you for your suggestion and hopefully you will experience more information about winterization this next coming year.
 
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