Another Broken toilet flange thread!

Discussion in 'Plumbing Forum, Professional & DIY Advice, Tips & ' started by Andrew21, Feb 16, 2010.

  1. Andrew21

    Andrew21 New Member

    Messages:
    163
    Location:
    New York
    Hey all,
    I know this is way beyond my DIY skills but I wanted to hear from the pros what the plumber will have to do to fix this.

    I'm in NY/Long Island and had to demo the bathroom. Upon pulling up the toilet, the flange around the pipe broke off. You can actually spin the flange. Anyway, I will call the plumber in but will he have to cut the entire piece out and replace it? What kind of material is this? I just want to know what he will be doing. Thanks!

    Andrew

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  2. johnjh2o1

    johnjh2o1 Plumbing Contractor for 49 years

    Messages:
    1,139
    Location:
    South*East
    What you have is a lead bend with a wiped joint onto a brass ferrule then caulked into 4" cast iron. It will have to be replaced back to the cast iron using ABS or PVC. Your right in saying it is beyond the skills of a DIY.

    John
  3. Gary Swart

    Gary Swart In the Trades

    Messages:
    7,296
    Location:
    Yakima WA
    As noted, this is not a DIY job, but it is not a difficult job for a professional plumber. Just be sure the new flange rests on top of the finished floor. This means you would want to get the floor laid before working on the flange.
  4. Andrew21

    Andrew21 New Member

    Messages:
    163
    Location:
    New York
    Ok so the flange/pipe going to the main waste pipe needs to be taken out right? Then will they will put back the pipe. Is ABS the plastic just like PVC? What's the difference?

    yes, i'm going to do the floor but waiting to hear from the guys on the johnbridge forums if I shoiuld take up the planks or not.
  5. johnjh2o1

    johnjh2o1 Plumbing Contractor for 49 years

    Messages:
    1,139
    Location:
    South*East
    Either ABS or PVC will do the job. It depends on what is the most used in your part of the country.

    John
  6. gardner

    gardner DIY Senior Member

    Messages:
    217
    Location:
    Ontario
    I do not believe it is a given that the lead bend has to be replaced. If it is sound, the brass ring can be re-attached after the floor is built. It is also reasonable to simply peen over the lead -- it does not have to be soldered, and may not originally have been soldered.

    If you keep your tile floor thin -- take up the boards that are there, replace with 2 layers of 5/8ths plywood and Ditra, then I bet you will have enough lead riser to work with.
  7. Andrew21

    Andrew21 New Member

    Messages:
    163
    Location:
    New York
    Someone told me to do this..is this correct?

    -I would chase that closet bend back to the stack Which is right there and install a donut where it connected into the hub and stick a short length of pvc into your donut and then an elbow then run your vertical pipe up glue it to a pvc closet flange but leave it unglued at the elbow and a bit longer then necessary. Then after your floors tiled you can cut it to length and install it correctly. Lead is outdated and toxic.

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  8. johnjh2o1

    johnjh2o1 Plumbing Contractor for 49 years

    Messages:
    1,139
    Location:
    South*East
    You got it.

    John
  9. Andrew21

    Andrew21 New Member

    Messages:
    163
    Location:
    New York
    Ok, then I have another question. Since the pipe is smaller than the original stack, its no longer bigger but a smaller pvc/abs pipe. Is that ok for toilets?
  10. jadnashua

    jadnashua Retired Defense Industry Engineer xxx

    Messages:
    21,798
    Location:
    New England
    The toilet drain pipe must be at least 3" all the way until it hits a larger pipe. If you can do that, you should be okay. 4" would be better, but consider that the largest toilet trap generally available is 3", and most are in the order of 2-1/8" or so, so draining into a 3" pipe is okay. Just don't use an internal flange, which would cut that diameter down. One that fits on the outside will work well.
  11. Terry

    Terry Administrator Staff Member

    Messages:
    14,749
    Location:
    Bothell, Washington
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    I normally just pull the lead out of the cast iron tee, and use a 4x3 flush bush into a insert rubber pipe donut.

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  12. Andrew21

    Andrew21 New Member

    Messages:
    163
    Location:
    New York
    Awesome Terry! Thats much better and I feel like there won't be any clogs.

    How do you think I can go about pulling the lead out of the cast iron tee? From what I'm reading, you have to 'pry the old lead out' with a screwdriver and a hammer. Of course taking it with ease and consideration NOT to damage anything else.
  13. johnjh2o1

    johnjh2o1 Plumbing Contractor for 49 years

    Messages:
    1,139
    Location:
    South*East
    Drill a series of small holes in the lead then pry the lead out. Try not to drive the lead into the hub as there is a chance you could crack it.

    John
  14. Andrew21

    Andrew21 New Member

    Messages:
    163
    Location:
    New York
    Oh boy,

    We opened up the floor and found this

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    The bend, its all lead but the next part, is that brass/copper? then into the cast iron DWV?
  15. Terry

    Terry Administrator Staff Member

    Messages:
    14,749
    Location:
    Bothell, Washington
    There is a brass Ferrel where it meets the hub.
    And then the lead is built up around that.
    To remove, we use a few drill bits, drill out what we can, and pry out the rest.
    I don't bother putting heat on anything.
  16. Gary Swart

    Gary Swart In the Trades

    Messages:
    7,296
    Location:
    Yakima WA
    If you are going to have a plumber do this, save yourself the work of removing it and let him deal with it. This will be a very easy job for him since you already have access. In your original question, you asked about the difference between PVC and ABS. Both of these materials are man-made, but there are quite different chemically, but both ae satisfactory for drains. They are easy to distinguish by looking, PVC is white and ABS is black. The photos Terry attached show ABS. In your application, either will be just fine, but when joining pipes and fittings, you need to use the appropriate solvent (aka glue) The joint actually are not glued in the way we usually think of glue, but they are chemically welded. The solvent melts the surfaces of the pipe and fitting allowing the pieces to slide together. In just a few seconds, these surfaces have fused together literally welding the joint.
    Last edited: Mar 1, 2010
  17. Andrew21

    Andrew21 New Member

    Messages:
    163
    Location:
    New York
    Terry,
    Thanks. What we are going to do is take your advice. Confused on one thing. The brass ferrel. We can take that out correct? We can take the lead off and then start to drill into the brass(middle piece) to the hub to remove the brass. Thats the route we are going unless I'm wrong. No heat here. We don't want the house going up in flames!

    Oh yeah, the guy at Lowes wanted us to use a fernco adapter to attach to the brass. But I like your idea better.
    Last edited: Mar 1, 2010
  18. Terry

    Terry Administrator Staff Member

    Messages:
    14,749
    Location:
    Bothell, Washington
    When you drill out the lead, and peal it out, the are will fall out of the joint.
    One of Jamie's high school buddies helped dig two ditches.
    That qualified him as a plumbing expert at Home Depot.

    And then, he told my son, since he is looking at part bins, how hard can it be?
    It's like on the job training.

    Yeah, but without leaning any plumbing code, or working with a Journeyman plumber
    Stare at the parts, and then guess on how they would be used.

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    I normally just pull the lead out of the cast iron tee, and use a 4x3 flush bush into a insert rubber pipe donut.

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    You may need a 4"x3" flush bush that pushes into the seal here.
    The Closet bend is a 4"x3" spigot bend, in conjunction with a 4" closet flange.
    This allows you to drop the flange very low.
    Last edited: Mar 1, 2010
  19. Andrew21

    Andrew21 New Member

    Messages:
    163
    Location:
    New York
    Got it terry. I know what to do now. I'll keep everyone posted.
  20. hj

    hj Moderator & Master Plumber Staff Member

    Messages:
    26,226
    Location:
    Cave Creek, Arizona
    The flange did NOT come loose from the pipe, it was NEVER connected to it in the first place. The flange was placed over the lead bend and should have been fastened to the floor. Then the lead bend was "flared" over and flattened against the flange. At this stage, I do not see any reason to change anything, other than to screw the flange down securely.
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