AmStd Cadet slow flushing

[Ender519]

I have a 4 yr old house with 3 baths. When we moved in they had horrendous toilets installed that we quickly replaced with American Standard Cadets, which overall have performed quite nicely.

In one of our upstairs baths, the toilet has suddenly developed an issue which has stumped me and I'd appreciate any advice that would save me calling a pro unless I have to do it.

The problem is, the toilet seems to flush normally as far as water flowing into the bowl, but there is a sluggish draining problem and the flush will not complete. This is only for the FIRST flush after it has sat awhile, because if you flush it again right afterwards it seems to flush normally.. and any subsequent flushes if done soon afterwards are normal. This means that now when we use that bathroom, you have to flush first, then use the bathroom and flush again. Kind of annoying.

Both the sink and the tub in the same bathroom drain fine, and both other bathrooms work fine.

I did the test several times where I took a 5 gallon bucket of water and quickly poured it into the toilet having the problem and it drains just fine. So that means it doesn't appear to be a draining problem, but a problem of the water flowing into the bowl. So I cleared all the nozzles and the jet at the bottom, wasn't much to clear but used pipe cleaners... The thing is, the toilet seems to flush the same way as it always did. I'm not using any blue tablets or anything. As a last resort I used a toilet augar but it didn't make any difference.

So what gives? I do a test with the water bucket that seems to point to the toilet itself being the problem, but then everything about the toilet seems to point to the drain line being the problem...

HELP!!

 

[RRW]

Have you confirmed that the water levels in both the tank and bowl are the same for the first flush as for the following ones? Sounds like something is leaking down over an extended period. Good Luck

 

[Sponsor]

 

[Ender519]

Yes I have. In fact, this is one of those low flows where there is over 3 gal of water in the tank and if you hold down the handle it double flushes.

On the first flush the water level is normal in the bowl, and I can hold the handle down and the water will swirl like normal but while the water level doesn't rise much, nothing seems to drain properly and the water level never lowers to complete the flush.

If I let the tank refill and flush again, it flushes normally and if I hold the handle down it will double flush.

On the same token, if I let it sit awhile and then come at it with a 5 gal bucket of water and pour it in there as fast as I can it drains without any problems whatsoever...


I don't have an issue with buying a new toilet as it's far less than calling a plumber out to the house, but I'd hate to spend the scratch and find out there is no improvement. And plus nothing here seems to make sense.. if the toilet is at fault why is only the first flush affected??

 

[Mikey]

How long does it have to sit idle before the problem develops? Does it matter if other fixtures are used (or not) during that period?

 

[Ender519]

It has to sit for a couple hours before the problem re-occurs and it happens whether or not I use the sink/tub or fixtures in the other baths.

I have also tried (with the cooperation of other people) flushing all three toilets in the house at once after it has sat awhile. The other two work fine.

 

[Mikey]

Are you certain that none of the toilets leak? Simple test -- put food coloring in the tank and see if the water in the bowl changes color.

 

[Ender519]

I'm sure it's not leaking. I used red dye and left it for a few hours. What I did do is flush that out, drain the tank and bowl and then I duck taped the rim and the jet and poured some vinegar down the flapper so that it would (hopefully?) get rid of any deposits.

We live in Indiana which has very hard water and lots of limestone. If I *still* have trouble I may just grab the digital camera and take a video of it flushing and post it.

If THIS doesn't fix it I suppose I'll just bite the bullet and go buy a new toilet because I can pour 5 gallons of water down the bowl in about 6 seconds so it darn sure isn't a drainage problem.

Anyone have any other ideas? I think I'm tapped out

 

[Verdeboy]

It's possible you may have an intermittent vent blockage. When you flush for the first time, it temporary clears it out, and then it comes back. Go on your roof and clean out the vent with a hose, and see if that helps. First shine a flashlight down the vent to look for debris.

Here's a link that should help you:

http://www.ehow.com/how_117396_clear-clogged-plumbing.html

 

[Breplum]

It does sound like a vent could have a problem, so check it out for sure.
However, I have seen this occur before and think that it is a consequence of mineral buildup over time inside the trapway of the toilet. With this toilet in particular, possibly due to the vagaries of casting in the porcelain compared to other wcs in the house.

I would bet that replacing the toilet with a good flushing toilet like the Toto Drake will solve the problem. It has in at least two dozen instances that I can think of.
Good Luck

 

[Mikey]

I'm sure it's not leaking.

I wasn't so much interested in the "bad" toilet as the others. Your last post is confusing -- about pouring 5 gallons in the bowl in 6 seconds. Are you saying that if you poured 1.6 gallons in the bowl it would always flush OK, but if you inject the water via the flushing mechanism if always fails on the first attempt?

 

[Ender519]

I wasn't so much interested in the "bad" toilet as the others. Your last post is confusing -- about pouring 5 gallons in the bowl in 6 seconds. Are you saying that if you poured 1.6 gallons in the bowl it would always flush OK, but if you inject the water via the flushing mechanism if always fails on the first attempt?

Yeah that's what I am saying. If I use the bucket of water and pour roughly a couple gallons in there it will flush every time. Yet if I just flush using the tank the first time, it will not flush all the way. And if I just fill the bucket up to the top (5 gal) and pour it quickly down it will all drain very quickly.

I did the other 2 toilets (another AmStd Cadet and an Eljer Patriot) and they are not leaking either. All the dye stayed in the tank.

breplum: I am sure a toilet like the Toto Drake would solve the problem, except that it's kind of a tight budget this year and I can't drop several hundred on a toilet. Wish I could tho

Verdeboy: I will check the vent but since I can pour the bucket of water down the bowl every time, doesn't that negate the possibility that it's the vent?

 

[Mikey]

I sure can't wait to find out what's wrong...

We seem to be at the point where we're asking the question: What changes (in the flush mechanism or flush path) during the two hours after a successful flush that causes [only] the next flush to fail?

BTHOOM ...

 

[Verdeboy]

Try this: For your "first flush" slowly pour a smaller amount of water into the toilet using a bucket--between 1 and 1.5 gallons. There's a certain threshold of water that, if you exceed it, the flush will be fine. By pouring 2 to 5 gallons into the bowl, you are exceeding the threshold.

See if you can determine the exact volume of water needed for the first flush to be good, and see if the volume decreases for subsequent flushes.

And, don't forget to go check out your vents and see if there's some twigs or leaves in one of them.

 

[ss3964spd]

But.....

If one, or more, of the other wcs's are on that same vent then it seems to me it/they would have a similar problem if the vent were obstructed.

Gentleman mentioned the issue is with one of the upstairs baths, but the other upstairs bath is fine. Typically the two upstairs baths (and even the lower levels) are tied to the same stack.

I have a similar issue, and the baths are back to back. The wc in the master bath takes multiple flushes whereas the wc in the hall bath only needs one.

Unless my oldest son uses it.

Dan

 

[TSPORT]

Ender519, I'm not a plumber, just a capable do-it-youselfer chiming in. For what it's worth, my father had a similar complaint with a toilet in his house about 2 years ago. I don't remember if it was only after sitting a while or every flush. He was certain that the internal passageways in the toilet were clogged with mineral deposits. Long story short, what ended up being the problem was that he had low water pressure & flow caused by a partially clogged water softener tank. He had it back-flushed and the problem was solved. He has 3 toilets in the house and only had the problem with the one on the main floor ( 2 upstairs toilets were fine). You would think the ones furthest from the water softener would be most affected, go figure. Anyway, if you have a water softener system, you may want to check that. My 2 cents. Happy flushing....TSPORT

 

[Verdeboy]

I have a similar issue, and the baths are back to back. The wc in the master bath takes multiple flushes whereas the wc in the hall bath only needs one.
Unless my oldest son uses it.Dan

Have you tried using a toilet auger yet? Are the fill valve and flapper adjusted to optimize the amount of water going from the tank to the bowl?

 

[Mikey]

Back to basics

From your first post:

I can hold the handle down and the water will swirl like normal but while the water level doesn't rise much, nothing seems to drain properly and the water level never lowers to complete the flush

You're not getting enough water into the bowl fast enough to raise the level in the bowl high enough to start the siphon action -- the trapway has to be totally filled to start the siphon. The water comes in slowly, and swirls, but no siphon develops and no true flush occurs. This has nothing to do with the drain or the vent.

Great, you say, but why? The only way the water gets out of the tank and into the bowl is via the hole under the flapper valve. If something is preventing the flapper from opening fully it would cause this. If there was an obstruction in the bowl casting preventing the full flow, it would cause this.

I assume you've tried all your experimental flushing with the top off the tank, watching everything like a hawk, to see what happens differently on that first flush compared with the second. If not, do so. I'll bet the water in the tank will just slowly lower on the first flush. It should rush out as fast as you would expect water to flow out a 2" hole. See if there's any difference in flapper position or anything else in there on the second (successful) flush, when the water will (I'll bet) pretty-much just disappear.

If everything looks the same, you're not going to like this suggestion, but what I would do is pull the tank from the bowl and have a good look (as good as you can get) down into the bowl casting. Pour some water down the hole -- slowly -- and see what happens. Increase the rate at which you pour and see what happens. This is a stretch, but maybe there's something in there that drifts down in the water and blocks something, and magically unblocks itself after an attempted flush. At this point I have to say play it by ear and see if anything looks suspicious.

If something looks suspicious, and/or you really want to get into this, pull the bowl, take it outside, and backflush it with a garden hose. The pros are laughing pretty hard by now, but maybe they'll stop long enough to offer suggestions on how to do this.

Regardless of that experiment, replace the entire flushing mechanism with a Fluidmaster or Corky (sp?) kit from a big-box store. Put everything back together and pray. Let us know what happened. Take pictures.

 

[daveydo]

Hey there,

I've had a similiar problem. What I found was that the flapper stuck after sitting for a few hours. Mineral build-up maybe, I can't recall.

Anyway, what I experience was that the flapper did not come up to vertical on the first flush. As a result, an incomplete flush. The second flush was fine with the flapper coming to vertical or almost, and then falling back as it should. I replaced the flapper and cleaned the tank taking care to clean especially well at the sealing surface of the hole.

This worked for me. As Mikey said, watch carefully the mechanism with each flush. You may see a difference one to another.

Further, if the toilet worked fine at one time and the bowl is working fine as you described, then something has changed in the tank. If it was mine, I'd replace the guts, flapper, ballcock assembly and clean the thing good. What do you have to lose, $20? and if it doesn't help, the parts can be used in your other cadet. You'll surely need to replace them sooner or later.

If it doesn't work and your really energtic and dough is a problem, switch tanks. if the problem is now with the other cadet you've ruled out everything else. I'd do this as a last resort only and wonder if I'm going crazy all the while.

Hope this helps