American Standard Champion 4 VS Champion 4 Max

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AS-Shopper

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Hello, I was wondering if there are any differences in quality between the "standard" AS Champion 4 and the Champion 4 Max. I had decided on the Champion but was disappointed to learn that I can't get that toilet in the round front AND the right height... you have to pick one or the other. However, the Max model comes with both. I know that the Max version is 1.28 gpf versus the regular Champion being 1.6, but are there other differences? Is the Max version just as good as the original? Any info would be greatly appreciated?

Thanks.
 

WJcandee

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You're not going to find too many fans of the Champion on this forum. There are better toilets for less money. Like the totos.

However, it is my educated wild-ass guess that the Champion Max should be somewhat similar to the Champion 4 in performance, as they are just turning it into a Watersense (1.28) toilet, and probably copying those who went before (like Toto) as to how to accomplish that. It's the quality control at AS that we all still cringe about, based on the anecdotes that are posted here and elsewhere.

The Toto Promenade CST424SF (1.6gpf) if you can find it, or the Toto Eco-Promenade CST424EF (1.28 gpf) are both excellent performing toilets at chair height and round bowl.

Are you sure you need a round bowl? There are elongated toilets that are comparable in actual length to round ones if you do the research. Also, we find that unless you have a physical object that is going to hit the bowl (like a door), then elongated is the way to go even if it appears at first blush that it will take up too much room. I made that mistake with my round Drake; an elongated would have been fine. I would look at the Original Drake CST744EL or CST744SL as options. They are excellent values, but both are elongated. The Drake II has chair height, CEFIONTECT finish, a flush with a little better bowl rinse (double-cyclone), etc., for just a little more. CST454CEFG

When you are pricing Totos, never go by list price. Those are the prices your decorator would charge you if you had one; the real street prices are substantially-less, and you can get an idea of them by doing research and by calling multiple plumbing supply stores in your area with an exact model number and color in hand. You will get a crazy range of prices, some of which will be close to what you see it for on the Net and some of which are similar to the list. But with a little effort, you can find a fair price.

Good luck!!
 

AS-Shopper

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Awesome. Thanks so much for the reply. I'm considering getting the elongated bowl... I was nervous that it would look too big for the bathroom, but it's only 2 inches longer than my existing toilet, so in reality it's not a crazy difference. There's nothing in the way, the toilet sits across from another wall. But the toilet sits parallel to the tub/shower, so I was afraid that my space for getting in and around the toilet or out of the shower would be a bit cramped. Then again, it is just two inches. Originally I liked the Toto Soiree but the only plumbing company that called me back originally (the customer service in my area hasn't been great) was charging nearly $800 to install the toilet, making the total price about $1500, which was crazy to me. Another company recommended and sells a Kohler toilet (not Cimarron) and some other brand I had never heard of.

I'll take a look at the models you mentioned before making a final decision. Thanks for the feedback and for the educated wild-ass guess. ;)
 

WJcandee

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Eight hundred is insane, so you are right. You can see what Terry charges for the toilet and the install, and that $179 install is a very fair price. Notice that he isn't killing you on price to install a Unifit-adapter based toilet.

I would pull out the yellow pages and call around to a number of plumbing supply places (like no less than 5), whether they purport to sell Toto or not. Give them your Soiree model number and color [MS964214CEFG] and let them know you are interested in buying today if the price is right. See how well you can do. You might ask the plumbing supply place with the best price if they can recommend a plumber who has bought a few Soirees from them and thus would be experienced in doing a Soiree install at a good price.

But if you don't need the Unifit (i.e. you have a standard 12" rough in -- measure it from the finished wall (not the baseboard) to the center of the closet bolts on the toilet as a good approximation -- then the Drake II and the Ultramax II (MS604114CEFG) are stylish toilets that perform amazingly at a lower price than the Soiree and install directly on the flange, so it might be easier to find a plumber in your area to install it at a reasonable price.
 

Jadnashua

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FWIW, installing a toilet, while somewhat heavy, isn't really very hard mechanically...many people can do this themselves quite successfully. The parts needed are cheap, in the order of $10 or so, and a couple of common hand tools - pliers, wrench and sometimes a screw driver.
 

AS-Shopper

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Yeah the $800 was crazy... especially when everyone else is charging half that price. I'm sure I can find someone else. For some reason I though Totos could only be bough from pluming companies, but as suggested I'll call a few plumbing supply stores. Thanks a bunch for all the advice.
 

WJcandee

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Yeah the $800 was crazy... especially when everyone else is charging half that price. I'm sure I can find someone else. For some reason I though Totos could only be bough from pluming companies, but as suggested I'll call a few plumbing supply stores. Thanks a bunch for all the advice.

Some models are even available at HD, although not necessarily at the best possible price. Some of their prices are good, some are terrible. Odd how they are pricing them.
 
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