Air in water lines

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jnrwood

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.Hi, i'm trying to diagnose a problem in my friends plumbing system. She has air coming out of faucets, especially noticable when toilets tanks are re-filling. She says its only been happening for a month or so.
The bladder type tank was installed about 10 years ago. Its possible that the previous tank was bladderless.
The check valve before tank appears to have a "snifter valve" on it and also next to it a dial control of some
sort that i'm not familiar with numbers marked in "degrees". what is that? do you set it for the outside temperature to control freezing of pipes?
Just took first look so far, next step will be replacing pressure guage. the one on there(cracked and rusty)
works somewhat if you tap on it- pump came on at 35lbs, and shut off at 53. air charge in tank read 45lbs-
thats not right.
water volume seems to be good - the air in the lines is the main problem. it doesnt go away after running water for awhile. after replacing pressure guage i plan to see if pressure holds with no water running for awhile,
to see if check valve is working.

P6250006.JPG


system has submersible pump, not sure mof make, or depth of well at this point. will try to post pictures.
thanks in advance
 
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Valveman

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You should not have a check valve or a Schrader valve before a bladder tank. And the thing with the dial looks like an air injector, which you should also not have with a bladder tank. The air injector makes me think she may have an iron or sulfur problem, which needs air injection to eliminate. But you need something besides a bladder tank if that is the case. If there is no iron or sulfur problem, just eliminate the check valve/Schrader valve and the air injector and unless you have a hole in the drop pipe you should be OK.
 

jnrwood

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You should not have a check valve or a Schrader valve before a bladder tank. And the thing with the dial looks like an air injector, which you should also not have with a bladder tank. The air injector makes me think she may have an iron or sulfur problem, which needs air injection to eliminate. But you need something besides a bladder tank if that is the case. If there is no iron or sulfur problem, just eliminate the check valve/Schrader valve and the air injector and unless you have a hole in the drop pipe you should be OK.

That sounds good to me- i'll ask her if she's got the iron problem. the i'm just confused over why she said the problem only started a month ago. And definitely no check valve before tank?
 

jnrwood

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I still say you have leak below a check valve or your pressure tank has ruptured a hole and the micronizer air injector is putting air into your system.

i heard that. now i know about that air injector, gonna figure out what the dial does, how it might affect it.
not forgetting what you said about the tank, and leak. so tank should be without bladder?
 

jnrwood

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https://files.acrobat.com/a/preview/34044923-a4e6-4173-a423-b856f03d3abf

This a WM micronizer, if you cant get it to come up, just type in the browser (how does a wellmate micronizer work).

looks similar to whats in there. do you also agree that the upper check valve should come out? i guess if its there
it will be hard to check for leak-water pressure wont go down if its working.
And to plug tee on downpipe- whats needed- pull pipe 5 ft or whatever it is? i may be able to rent the equipment
to do that- pulled a pump years ago with some borrowed equipment.. and get access + disconnect supply line from
pitless adapter first. havent seen well setup, wont be going back there till monday, to do some other work,, but could
spend some time doing something on it- replace pressure guage and measure for pipe i'd need to eliminate check valve.
actually, i may be able to check the so-called snifter valve when pump shuts off to see if its drawing air.
thanks for the help, we feel a lot smarter now (and yes, i didnt draw down tank pressure to check precharge pressure.)
will keep you posted next week.
 

jnrwood

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It should be 5 to 10ft down the well.

Yes, I agree with valveman. Check and see if that is a metal union next to that check valve (hammer does wonders to a stubborn metal union with a pipe wrench on the back side), if it is, disconnect the pipe there and degut the check valve (the inside parts) so you can just put everything back on the way it was but it will now be completely open & saves time.

When you turned off the breaker to the well pump to draw down the tank, in the process were you getting lots of air? When you checked the precharge, was it on 0psi & if you slightly shook the pressure tank was it completely empty of water? When you turned the breaker back on to the pump, was there a big delay before the water made it back into the tank or any because that is usually a good sign that you have a leak below a check valve in the well.

Yes, looks like metal union, will try the hammer trick and see how hard it is to de-gut the valve. I'll check all the rest also
on monday with checking precharge, etc. Would there be another check valve down the well, besides a foot valve or one in the
pump? I think the well is probably 125-200 ft deep.
 

jnrwood

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Ok, here's the latest. When i emptied the tank, yes, alot of air in water, just like when they run faucets. replaced
pressure guage. precharge was at 25, filled it to 33, with empty tank (cut in was 35, cut-out 53). no hole in bladder, its holding air without leaks.
i had my friend flip breaker to refill tank from empty, while i waited by tank, to check for delay, etc. No delay, but by
holding pipe and listening closely, i'm pretty sure there was lots of air coming from down below. sounded and felt
alot of turbulence in water coming up from well.
the problem has been happening for only a month or 2 while micronizer and current setup with tank has been in place
for about ten years, so... sounds like a leak below a check valve? i'm having the homeowners do some research, to find out
how deep is the well, before i commit to pulling pipe. next time i'm over, i'll try to determine what pipe is made out of .
i did reset micronizer to what i thought was the least or no air injection, but i dont think thats the problem, i'll hear later
if anythings better or worse.
 

jnrwood

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The micronizer is push air with water inside your bladder tank and has been from day one unless somebody put the micronizer at 0%. I cant believe that this wasn't a problem since day one. Thats why you were getting air when draining the tank, from the micronizer because it puts air into the tank and when you are using water in the house, you are draining the water but also the air from the micronizer stored inside the bladder. The precharge air is on the outside of the bladder, the micronizer is put air on the inside of that bladder.
I'll remove it entirely with guts of check valve next time i'm there (had other work to do yesterday). it was set at a more or less a halfway
setting, nobody messed with it, but i was told it can go, especially if it fixes the problem.
 

jnrwood

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Do they have smelly water coming out the faucets? I just dont see somebody buying the micronizer system for nothing.
No, no problem with smelly water, was told there there was iron in water and they had "hard water", but no smells
. i dont see much to the micronizer
system, just that little dial thingy after check valve, unless another unit is part of it. there's what they're calling a whole house filter
with a pretty tall cylindrical tank with a boxy black unit on top, that all the water goes thru from tank.
i'm thinking with check valve out i could see if tank drains down at all. at least try to eliminate everything above ground w/micronizer out.
maybe drianback valve was plugged and got unplugged.
 

VAWellDriller

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No, no problem with smelly water, was told there there was iron in water and they had "hard water", but no smells
. i dont see much to the micronizer
system, just that little dial thingy after check valve, unless another unit is part of it. there's what they're calling a whole house filter
with a pretty tall cylindrical tank with a boxy black unit on top, that all the water goes thru from tank.
i'm thinking with check valve out i could see if tank drains down at all. at least try to eliminate everything above ground w/micronizer out.
maybe drianback valve was plugged and got unplugged.
Ding Ding..... we have a winner... that is your problem...you have an iron removal system, and that's why the micronizer is there with the bladder tank. That big cylindrical thing is a softener/iron remover and it uses the micronizer to inject air to help oxidize the iron. I don't like the setup personally, but it does work and I see lots of them around here. You need to have that unit serviced...... it vents excess air somehow, I presume with backwash, but it isn't working properly...... this is most definitely the source of the air in your lines in the house..... this whole system is designed to have air all the time, which is stripped at the last minute.
 

VAWellDriller

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I'm really not sure... but it's always the same setup when I see it, and it's usually when there is a really bad iron problem. It work, but it usually gums up the tank tee and piping between the tank and the softener tank with precipitated iron. I'm guessing that maybe somebody put this guys system in bypass or something..... it will send all the air to the house if you do that.
 

Ballvalve

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Why are the people using bladder tanks instead of this tank that goes with the micronizer?

http://www.waterworkspumpandwell.com/tanks-hp.html


DING DONG! Original poster would have been nice to photograph all the water components so we were not monkeys chasing a donut with our reverse tails.

Sherlock noticed that the micronizer was clearly installed somewhat recently - see the photo. Good thing they didnt tear into it and pull out the check valve and micronizer. Fix the Iron system, which sounds like it can vent the air. But of course it IS the wrong tank - when the iron filter went in, either the installer was a dope or they wanted to save the tank that was there. Interesting thread.
 
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