Air Gap Problem

[Dunbar Plumbing]

What are the requirements for the plumbing code section of the IRC series, and not the UPC? Just curious because I have never seen the counter airgap in any new construction installation of a DW.

With that being said, it was told to me (not taught) that the loop in the drainline, along with the termination point at the disposal or neck above the trap is acceptable.

Please educate me with your opinion but please quote a code section from the IRC if you do.

Principle No. 15. Prevent contamination. Proper protection shall be
provided to prevent contamination of food, water, sterile goods, and similar
materials by backflow of sewage. When necessary, the fixtures, device, or
appliance shall be connected indirectly with the building drainage system.​

Principles are not code. It's what is expected to produce a plumbing system over and above all implied thinking, rules and revisions to protect the safety of others.

My "opinion" on these matters:


Any time you directly connect a potentially harmful substance to any device that provides a product for use or to ingest *water/dishes/utensils* you open up the possibility for harmful bad things to happen.


This reference of Air Gaps isn't even a discussion at the Commercial/Industrial level because it is CODE in all 50 states. That caters to mass contamination when the probability arises.

Shrink that down to the residential level, now we are dealing with less people involved, less probability, less chance of affecting many.

"Many" and "few" is an interpretation of the code in many states. Degree of hazard follows another line of thinking as well.

In KY it is absolutely necessary, California as well.

I don't care if the code is relaxed in other states, the world of thinking in protection overrides. I wish people would die untimely deaths as a result of "high looping".

It shouldn't be legal in the same state on commercial/industrial applications, then all of a sudden relax to the residential.

I think if you are allowed to high loop in residential in your state, then it should apply to commercial/industrial as well. You'll be stacking dead people up like concentration camps.

Sometimes death is the only thing to fix stupid.

 

[Terry]

And if you do screw up and your tub gets dirty, any home owner with a nose or eyes should recognize that there is a problem, unclog the drain and run the washer again.

The plumbing codes are "for" non-thinking people.
And installed "by" thinking people.
We don't want to depend on the neighbor next door to know enough to not let a hose lay in chemicals, or that you will be feeding your family off of dirty plates taken from a dishwasher that allowed "stuff" back into the tub.
We provide air gaps at all faucets, have you ever noticed that the outlet of a faucet is higher than the rim of the sink, tub or bowl?
That "gap" prevents "stuff" from going the wrong way.
It's why the United States of American has clean water, and healthy people. In countries that "let" the people do whatever they darn well please, well, just don't drink the water there. And take your shots before you travel.
What may be ugly in your eyes is very beautiful to others.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[Dunbar Plumbing]

First, regarding the tub full of crud, I make it a rule in my household to always run the disposer with the water on hot before turning on the dishwasher. That keeps the disposer clean as well as gets the water hot for the start of the wash cycle. To me that's something that should be done anyway so it doesn't make sense to have an ugly device on your counter that has the potential to cause other, unintended problems. And if you do screw up and your tub gets dirty, any home owner with a nose or eyes should recognize that there is a problem, unclog the drain and run the washer again.

Your statement proves why we have to protect the unknowledgeable in this world as licensed plumbers.


I've done work for partially/fully blind people that can't see the H or C on a faucet.

I've done work in homes where gas leaks were obvious at the door, but the owner lost his sense of smell. The human nose goes numb to a smell in 8 minutes I believe. Cooking smells are the number one smell that goes invisible rather quickly until another person comes into the home and notices instantly. Same as taking a huge dump and the smell doesn't bother you, just everybody else. Not being able to smell is a rather dangerous disability.

I've helped/worked for both. And those people DIE just like you will someday and you're expecting others to follow your logic in your home? That doesn't cut it in reality when individuals put different priorities to what is important and necessary.

This is why codes are so important, and ones that are relaxed be brought back to a statewide regulation.

There's more people with backed up sinks in dishwashers

than

Water Heaters blowing up houses *Government regulated FVIR technology*


Both are dangerous, real dangerous....one kills quickly, one kills randomly, or makes one potentially sick.


Dead people make the codes better than anyone.

 

[NHmaster]

I work frequently in N.H. in fact mostly. I install an air gap on every single dishwasher even though the code does not require one.

Any fool that want's to argue the value of back flow prevention is a fool. There are no arguments that are valid.
If you are in doubt www.watts.com find the information on backflow and read it. Then let me know how you feel.

Any Licensed Plumber that does not understand and adhere to backflow standards should turn in his license and go do something else.

Any non licensed whatever without an understanding of backflow principals should stay out of the discussion.

 

[Redwood]

After Jimbo posted a picture of a typical kitchen sink/dishwasher drain utilizing an air gap you posted.

Why is there a fitting between the washer and the disposer? That's not the way my plumber did it. He just hooked it right to the disposer. Since it is open there is your air gap. Same with branch tailpieces that I've seen.

The fitting you indicate is the Air Gap which is required by the code used in Los Angeles. While you are not required to have it under the North Carolina Code Californians are required to have an Air Gap installed.

I posted this as a reply to clarify this for your benefit.

No the fitting in the picture is the air gap.
The gap in the disposer does not count as an air gap because it is below the flood rim of the sink.

Stick around grasshopper...
There is much you will learn from us plumbers...
We fix what engineers goof up....

You then replied with this...

Maybe you can help me with the plumbing while I help you with the reading. As I stated in post 11, that was how my plumber installed it. This was in a new house (my cabin) built under 2002 NC Code. My older house (12 years old) has a direct connection to the branch tailpiece.

Both work fine, by the way.

You are able to have the dishwasher hose loop high to the bottom of the counter top and hook direct to the disposer, or, dishwasher tailpiece as are we under code here. However this has no bearing with the discussion and only serves to muddy the discussion of the problem

In California and quite a few other states using the UPC they are required to use an air gap. So in California it will not work fine and it would be a violation of code.

This air gap may best be thought of as a miniature faucet and sink. The discharge of the dishwasher comes up though the faucet and streams into the sink where it then drains down to the disposer or, dishwasher tailpiece. If the drain from this miniature sink is clogged the dishwasher waste in many cases flows out of the air gap fitting and into the sink. in some countertop installations it may go on the counter top. This indicates a problem with the drain from the air gap to the disposer or tailpiece possibly beyond.

The purpose of this air gap is to isolate the dishwasher from having water from a sink clog end up in the dishwasher. The only way that water from the sink could get into a dishwasher with an air gap properly installed would be if you built a contanment barrier around the sink and air gap then raised the water level above the top of the air gap. Effectively raising the flood rim of the sink.

With the method used in our states Southern Man if the sink drain is clogged and the sink is filled completely water will flow from the sink into the dishwasher. Also if the the sink drain was clogged and the sink was partially full using a plunger on the drain could cause water to flow into the dishwasher. If the high loop was not in place the dishwasher would fill by gravity flow alone in the event of a clog.

Sometimes it is best just to stop replying and let the thread go on without getting muddy.
I will always argue against Bad Advice.

 

[Redwood]

Personally I'd love it if air gaps had to be used here, I'd also like it if AAV's were banned. I'd also like it if the licensing was strictly enforced and I didn't have to compete against this guy...

Unlicensed Craigs List Hack

What it all boils down to is this trade is under attack.
General Contractors want it cheaper.
The public wants it cheaper
DIYers want it cheaper

They're getting it too!

But the day will come when some terible desease sweeps the land as it has in the past caused by bad plumbing. When it does they will know they have pushed to far.

The only way I see to stop the crazyness is by having a strong national code with local amendments for local conditions but no weakening of the code. This business of every state or, even city having its own code is just bad for the trade. Whats bad for the trade will one day prove bad for the public health.

How do I compete against a moonlighting unlicensed handyman in quoting the installation of a dishwasher? Nevermind the additional labor of cutting a hole in a granite countertop and installing an airgap which is not required here.

It ain't gonna happen!

 

[Ladiesman271]

I live in MA, and I can't recall ever seeing an air gap installed for a dishwasher here. I don't have one (just a high loop). Not sure what the code is here either.

http://www.home-inspect.com/itatips/04-03.asp

You can not contaminate the public water supply if you don't have an air gap in the discharge line, so I don't know why that was brought up by others in this thread.

 

[Jadnashua]

Keep in mind also that a disposal acts like a pump, and if the sink was full, the drain was clogged, and the disposal was turned on, it could force water back into the DW. Yes, the normal action would be to dump that into the drain, but just the agitation could move it over the high loop.

 

[TomC]

Thanks for all the help. Going to try a new gap.

 

[NHmaster]

Genglemen, I think what we are doing here is arguing backflow with someone that has no understanding of the
principals or the hazards. I suppose the place to start is not crapping upstream of your water supply.

 

[Redwood]

Thanks for all the help. Going to try a new gap.

Hey Tom Sorry about your thread being hijacked by the forces of ignorance but I guess you got the answer sort of.

Try that and hope it works.

 

[NHmaster]

What I'm saying is that without an air gap you can have a tub full of waste water in direct contact with your dishes. Is this concept really that hard to get?

 

[Ladiesman271]

Personally I'd love it if air gaps had to be used here, I'd also like it if AAV's were banned. I'd also like it if the licensing was strictly enforced and I didn't have to compete against this guy...


The only way I see to stop the crazyness is by having a strong national code with local amendments for local conditions but no weakening of the code. This business of every state or, even city having its own code is just bad for the trade. Whats bad for the trade will one day prove bad for the public health.

How do I compete against a moonlighting unlicensed handyman in quoting the installation of a dishwasher? Nevermind the additional labor of cutting a hole in a granite countertop and installing an airgap which is not required here.

It ain't gonna happen!

Make sure that you bring along that licensed electrician to disconnect the old dishwasher and connect that dishwasher to the electric supply. The safety of the public and codes demand it. You should also pull a permit and have the installation inspected.

However, I am not sure if you can afford to do that for the $150.00 install price!

 

[Jimbo]

I'd also like it if the licensing was strictly enforced and I didn't have to compete against this guy...

The only way I see to stop the crazyness is by having a strong national code with local amendments for local conditions but no weakening of the code. This business of every state or, even city having its own code is just bad for the trade. Whats bad for the trade will one day prove bad for the public health.

!

It seems to be going the other way! I believe the state of Oregon has proposed a law ( don't know if it passed the election ) where homeowner permits would not be required for construction/remodel up to $35,000. Yes 35 thousand dollars!

 

[Redwood]

It seems to be going the other way! I believe the state of Oregon has proposed a law ( don't know if it passed the election ) where homeowner permits would not be required for construction/remodel up to $35,000. Yes 35 thousand dollars!

It did not pass...
Fortunately the forces of sanity prevailed.

 

[Southern Man]

No, I think smileys would be better.

Here's a library of them for you to add to the forum: http://smiley.onegreatguy.net/index.html?

 

[Sjsmithjr]

Make sure that you bring along that licensed electrician to disconnect the old dishwasher and connect that dishwasher to the electric supply. The safety of the public and codes demand it. You should also pull a permit and have the installation inspected.

I suppose that's where an understanding of the codes, local admendments, and permitting comes into play. Where I live, it would be no problem for a plumber to (re)connect a replacement dishwasher to the existing electical. For a new installation where no electical service is present or if it was neccessary to repair or replace deficient work then, yeah, an electician would be required.

I do have question relevant to the discussion. Where the high loop is built into the appliance, is high loop left in place if an air gap is used or is the drain line rerouted to eliminate the high loop?

 

[NHmaster]

By installing the air gap you eliminate the possibility of waste backing up into the dishwasher. ELIMINATE It's not a sagging beam. It's not something that can be shored up. It's a dishwasher full of nasty water that for a 20 dollar expenditure can be eliminated. The code is different because The whores that sit on review committes fall prey to whatever lobbyist is stuffing their pockets.

I can see however that further comment is going to have the same effect as trying to teach a dog to whistle so unless you have a sudden 180 degree change of opinion I am done. If not, I beg you

www.watts.com/pro/divisions/backflowprevention/learnabout/learnabout_usc.asp

Tehn get back to us.

 

[Ladiesman271]

www.watts.com/pro/divisions/backflowprevention/learnabout/learnabout_usc.asp

Tehn get back to us.

That link was posted earlier. That link talks about contamination of the water supply. The installation of an air gap for a dishwasher drain is not mentioned in that link for obvious reasons.

 

[Sjsmithjr]

The installation of an air gap for a dishwasher drain is not mentioned in that link for obvious reasons.

If you click on the "Download this Study" link found on the referenced page, I believe you will find that dishwasher cross connects are discussed and were included in the survey.