Advice on replacement and additional equipment

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Randyacton

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From time to time we get the rotten egg smell coming from the hot water, this last time prompted me to buy a test kit from HD to do some rudimentary water testing. I knew that we have high hardness, iron, manganese and the sulfur/rotten egg smell but wasn't sure of the levels.

Don't have the results in front of me, but from memory tests results are as follows:

Water direct from well - PH (strip about 1.5), Hardness 800 ppm (test strip 800 max), Iron 5 ppm, Coliform bacteria positive, all other results were "normal" or safe.

Water post softener - PH 7.5, Hardness 0, Iron 0.5 pm, all other test "normal" or safe. Did not have another coliform test.

This is our current water set up. Pressure tank, Twin BB 10" (25 micron and 5 micron), older Kinetico softener (Model 60 I think) and Kinetico RO.

Whenever I change the BB 25 micron it is BLACK with a slimy residue which tells me that there is a manganese problem and the toilets develop a brownish/reddish film after a period of time, which tells me that iron is still getting through.

This spring I am going to re-plumb the water lines through the entire house and consolidate some items. Whomever plumbed this house must have been smoking really good herb because it is terrible. The line from the well comes into the crawl space and immediately goes into the pressure tank, from there a 1" feed takes it aprox. 30" to the sediment filters and softener, 1" feed comes out of softener and is then reduced to 3/4", the 3/4" feeds the hot water but reduces to 1/2 after the heater and the same 1/2 line then feeds all the hot water needs in the entire house. Same hold true for the cold, 1/2 line jumps from sink to sink, the pressure in the house is terrible if you run any more than one item at a time.

To make a long story just a little bit longer, what I intend to do is buy new stuff and install in a different location. The plan is for a pressure stop valve, chlorine pellet system, static mixer, contact tank, Fleck backwashing carbon filter, Fleck softener and RO system.

I do plan to have the water professionally tested, but I think that is pretty much a catch all type system.

Any thoughts?
 

ditttohead

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You got the basics. I would highly recommend a backup water sanitizing method ie" UV as the final.

I sell a ton of chlorine pellet systems but I am still not much of a fan of them. They are very cheap but they produce very inconsistent results and require a lot of cleaning to keep them operating properly. We have many dealers who sell them this year, then replace them with a better design next year. It is a good way to get their customers started on a slightly lower budget.

As to the system... I have some definite different build preferences but... until we get a water test done...
 

Randyacton

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I have a tankless water heater, not sure if that makes a difference.

As far as the pellet system, I was more concerned with not having the space. Adding the contact tank and backwashing filter add to the footprint, if I now add a solution tank I will have to take space away from my wifes pantry (happy wife happy life), although I suppose I could mount the pump and solution tank on the wall above the others.
 

Mikey

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I have a tankless water heater, not sure if that makes a difference.
Not sure, but my guess is it would make a difference. The conventional storage-tank water heater provides a comfortable home for bacteria to grow in, but the tankless, maybe not. Maybe one of the pro's here can offer a learned comment.
 

Reach4

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I would sanitize the well and plumbing system. This is not to say you don't want additional measure, but killing off the bugs in the well and plumbing is good. It can allow the rest of what you do to better do what they do.

You want to limit how much chlorine the softener gets, but it needs some.
 

Bannerman

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Sulfur odor only in the hot water system is often a reaction with the water heater anode rod. Replacing a magnesium anode rod with one of a different material will usually eliminate the odor if the anode is the cause. An alternate material is aluminum but there is also a powered anode which maybe utilized.

With regard to bacteria which Mikey mentioned, bacteria can grow inside a heater if the water temperature is maintained at a low level (ie: less than 140 F). Raising the temperature to 160 F temporarily for a few hours and running the extra-hot water for 5 minutes to each of the faucets in the home, will usually sanitize the hot water system, but the procedure will likely need to be repeated a few times each year.
 
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Randyacton

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Appreciate the advice, Bannerman, but I am not even sure if a tankless heater has an anode and since the water temp is only maintained on demand, I'm not sure if raising the temp will do much.

The problem with any sort of well sanitizing is that our well is an "artisan" or live well. Water flows through the well head year round at a rate of about 3 gallons a minute. I am not an expert by any means, but I don't think simply dumping chemicals into the well head will do any good as they will immediately come back out due the pressure in the well.
 

Bannerman

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You will need to inspect your system to establish if there is an anode incorporated somewhere. It appears some tankless systems do use them as replacement anodes for tankless systems are listed at this link: http://www.tanklesswaterheaters.com/anode.html

You stated the sulfur odor only occurs in the hot water system and so there is a reason it doesn't occur in both hot and cold. I listed the usual causes and common remedies for when that odor occurs only in the hot system. What you do with that information is up to you.

Your stated iron content is higher than should be removed with a softener and you found some iron is 'leaking' through the softener. This with a positive result for Coliform bacteria and possible manganese are perhaps all contributing to your issues. As Ditttohead insinuated above, to provide educated recommendations, your water test results need to be posted for review.
 
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ditttohead

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Looking forward to your water test. If footprint is an issue, there are a few tricks available that work very well but... lets wait until we see the water test.
 

Randyacton

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Sending water sample to NTL hopefully tomorrow, so I will post results when they come in.

Been doing more research about either a chlorine or peroxide dosing solution and came across a product that we actually use where I work. It is a dosing unit that works from line pressure and is manufactured by a company called Dosatron. Would never have stumbled on it if it weren't for a parts dolly running into it and cracking it. I have been monitoring the new unit we installed and it seems to work extremely well. The "additive" that we are dosing is the consistency of a "thin" mineral oil and has to travel about 8 feet.

Considering that in my case a much thinner chlorine solution will be used and the pick will be directly below the unit, I think it would have no problems.

Does anyone have any experience with the Dosatron units? They are a bit pricey but I like the fact that there is no pump involved.
 

ditttohead

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We are a Dosatron distributor. They work very well but... lets see the water report first. I don't recommend this type of system if you have iron or manganese as the "water motor" gets fouled up very quickly with precipitated iron.

Lets see the water report, then we can get you a great system.
 

JRC3

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since the water temp is only maintained on demand, I'm not sure if raising the temp will do much.
Leave the faucets open and it will be 140 or 160 the whole time. The idea is to leave them open and flowing long enough to sanitize the hot water side of the system.

Also what temp have had the tankless set? Have you increased it yet if below 140?
 

Randyacton

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Incomplete test results are in. NTL was down for a couple days due to weather so I should have the complete results by next Wednesday. Here is what we have thus far.

Calcium 83.3 mg/l
Copper 0.072 mg/l
Iron 3.04 mg/l
Lithium 0.026 mg/l
Magnesium 51.40 mg/l
Manganese 0.058 mg/l
Potassium 2.30 mg/l
Silica 18.60 mg/l
Sodium 247 mg/l
Strontium 1.960 mg/l
Hardness 420 mg/l
pH not complete
TDS not complete
Turbidity not complete
Chloride 300.0 mg/l
Fluoride 0.9 mg/l
Sulfate 170.0 mg/l
All other results were ND (not detected)

Based on my home tests and what I am seeing here, I think I can make the correlation that my softener is not regenerating as often as it should.

Any advice on the above results would be greatly appreciated and I will post the remaining test results when they come in.
 

ditttohead

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Your water is fairly bad. You would benefit from some additional treatment. A softener is certainly not designed to handle this kind of water. Since you have a known bacterial issue that is consistent a proper sanitizing method should be used. This will also assist with the iron, manganese and h2S. There are some small contact tanks that are fairly effective.
H2o2 injection, static mixer, small contact tank, Carbon or KL, softener... it is a little bit of equipment but it is effective. There are all in one systems, most of which work poorly at best.

We manufacture the all in ones and brand them for many companies. It is better to do it right...

Here are my thoughts on the all in one systems... :)

 

Reach4

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Water direct from well - PH (strip about 1.5)
That's probably a typo, since the strips probably don't even cover that low. It will be interesting to see what the NTL pH number is.

What is your well-- deep well with 4 inch steel casing?

I would sanitize your well and plumbing, and I would do it again after you finish your plumbing work. You will need other things, but I would still sanitize. The first line of https://terrylove.com/forums/index....izing-extra-attention-to-4-inch-casing.65845/ has a link to a nice sanitizing article, but then I go into my possibly-overkill extension. Sanitizing will give some significant improvement by itself, I think, but don't stop there.
 

ditttohead

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Yes but what level of Fluoride do you have? Is it from a naturally occurring source or is it from a municipal fluoridated supply? Many of the articles online about fluoride are linked to detox treatments or are written by tinfoil hat folks. Use extreme discretion when reading these articles and understand that there is a huge amount of junk science written on the topic. Most are written in an effort to get advertising link "clicks" or to directly promote a certain product. The scare tactics used border on ridiculous and I am sure this will be followed by a tinfoil hatter lambasting me... it always happens with this crowd. I am not pro fluoridation of the water, actually I am very much against it, I just refuse to participate in the ridiculous hysteria that these flim flam salesmen try to push. Simply put, fluoride in very small trace amounts is fine and is not going to suddenly cause the dozens of maladies these people claim. These are the same people who cut and past the same information over and over on every pollutant they can find online and try to get "clicks". Just cut and paste almost any sentence from any article into your search engine and you will see that these people simply copy each others "work" over and over.
 
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