Advice on Plumbing 2500-gal Water Storage Tank into Existing Well System

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FoxRedLab

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A single float switch turns the pump on and off. A second float switch is only for a low level safety and is redundant if you already have a dry well protection relay on the well pump.

Per Reach4's suggestion, I was thinking that I could use a NO top float to turn off the well pump when the tank is full, and a NO lower float to turn it on when the tank needs to be topped off. My logic is that, when the lower float closes and energizes the relay, I'm immunized against short-cycling caused by wave action, because the relay stays energized until the top float opens and de-energizes it. In other words, a fill would start when both NO floats close, would continue even after the bottom float opens, and then terminate when the top float opens. Short-cycling caused by a wave-surfing float would be eliminated, because energizing the relay is only possible when both floats reach closure, and it latches at a de-energized state the instant that both achieve open status.

UPS tells me that my Pside-Kick should be delivered today, so I'm almost ready for Prime Time! I need only to make final decision on float(s?) and relay.
 

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Per Reach4's suggestion, I was thinking that I could use a NO top float to turn off the well pump when the tank is full, and a NO lower float to turn it on when the tank needs to be topped off. My logic is that, when the lower float closes and energizes the relay, I'm immunized against short-cycling caused by wave action, because the relay stays energized until the top float opens and de-energizes it. In other words, a fill would start when both NO floats close, would continue even after the bottom float opens, and then terminate when the top float opens. Short-cycling caused by a wave-surfing float would be eliminated, because energizing the relay is only possible when both floats reach closure, and it latches at a de-energized state the instant that both achieve open status.

Yeah but you are just making it more complicated than it has to be. The more complicated you make it the less likely water will come out the faucet when you open it.
 

FoxRedLab

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After completing several other projects that interrupted the completion of this one, and after a fair amount of analysis paralysis (over-thinking), I have finally resumed progress on my 2500-gal well-pump-fed storage tank. To push water from the tank to the house, I finally pulled the trigger and purchased the current model of a pump like my neighbor has and swears by. It's a Grundfos JP10S-SS (shallow-well stainless steel 1Hp jet pump). His system is very similar to mine except that I will be using a CSV on this pump, and he does not. Although it was recommended on this forum that I use a 1.5Hp unit if I opted for a jet pump instead of a submersible, my neighbor has had zero problems with water delivery and pressure for the 15+ years that he has been using his Grundfos jet pump. If it doesn't work out for me, I suspect that I can sell it to my neighbor because his is beginning to drip and parts kits are no longer available.

Tomorrow I should receive the SJE Pumpmaster Plus pump switch that I'll use to trigger delivery from the well pump to the top of the tank. Per my neighbor's advice, I placed inside the tank input port a 1-1/4" PVC pipe across which I used a chop saw to cut a series of ~3/4"-wide slots about 1/4" apart. If it works like his does, the water should just fall out of the bottom of the pipe instead of shooting out the end, thereby mitigating much of the wave action that could cause pump-switch jitter. (The literature on the Pumpmaster Plus claims that it is not susceptible to turbulence, but I thought I'd give it a little help.)

In a response to tazman632000 in May 2014, Terry provided some drawings of well-pump/cistern/house-pump systems along the lines of what I'm doing. Two of the drawings show jet pumps in use to deliver water from the cistern. In only one of those drawings, a check valve is shown between the pump and the CSV. What is the purpose of this check valve? Have I been mistaken in my understanding that there are to be no valves or filters between the pump discharge and the CSV intake?

Also, both my pump and my pSide-Kick kit came with pressure switches. Should I wire both or just one? If just one, should I keep the one on the pump or the one on the CSV?

Thanks! I'm in the home stretch now... really, this time!
 

Reach4

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Use the pressure switch on the pSide-Kick. You want your pressure switch close to your pressure tank. You can locate the pSide-Kick in the house if you run the wires back to the pump. That will give the most uniform pressure at the house. I am presuming the cistern is not in the house. Having the pump at the cistern will make it quieter than in the house, plus pumps push better than they suck. I presume you have concerned yourself with freezing if you are in the part of Texas where that happens.
 

FoxRedLab

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I am presuming the cistern is not in the house. Having the pump at the cistern will make it quieter than in the house, plus pumps push better than they suck. I presume you have concerned yourself with freezing if you are in the part of Texas where that happens.
Tank, pump, and CSV are located in an insulated building (R19 walls, R30 ceiling) adjacent to the well head and about 80 feet from the house. My neighbor has a similar set-up, and the inside of his water building stays at a pretty steady 60 degrees year-round due to the thermal mass of the water in the tank. Were I to grow concerned that the temperature in the building might dip below freezing, it's easy enough to plug in a small heater.
 

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Per Reach4's suggestion, I was thinking that I could use a NO top float to turn off the well pump when the tank is full, and a NO lower float to turn it on when the tank needs to be topped off. My logic is that, when the lower float closes and energizes the relay, I'm immunized against short-cycling caused by wave action, because the relay stays energized until the top float opens and de-energizes it. In other words, a fill would start when both NO floats close, would continue even after the bottom float opens, and then terminate when the top float opens. Short-cycling caused by a wave-surfing float would be eliminated, because energizing the relay is only possible when both floats reach closure, and it latches at a de-energized state the instant that both achieve open status.

UPS tells me that my Pside-Kick should be delivered today, so I'm almost ready for Prime Time! I need only to make final decision on float(s?) and relay.

You only need a NO float switch in the tank. I have many and the "wave action" is absurd. If your well is suspect for production in producing the 2 or 300 gallons needed with the float, go for a pump sensor there. I think you missed it with a jet pump. You could have bought a cistern submersible pump [motor OVER] for 400$ or less and been better off. Well, some like to see and feel their pumps next to the tank, and so that works too. Use a low pressure cut off switch at your pressurizing pump to the house to save it if the tank goes dry for any number of reasons.

Still like the galvanized or glass lined storage tanks [water heaters work too for the Dutch and Polish out there] Just added a lag bolt in one of my three 80 gallon tanks, making about 5 bolts and plugs in them now. My water is a bit effervescent- leave it in a glass and its lined with bubbles in a moment. Therefore, I have never used a air maker and have never had them waterlog, on that particular well.
 

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In only one of those drawings, a check valve is shown between the pump and the CSV. What is the purpose of this check valve? Have I been mistaken in my understanding that there are to be no valves or filters between the pump discharge and the CSV intake?

Also, both my pump and my pSide-Kick kit came with pressure switches. Should I wire both or just one? If just one, should I keep the one on the pump or the one on the CSV?

Like Reach said, use the pressure switch that comes with the Pside-Kick and just wire around the switch on the side of the motor. You don't have to remove the switch on the motor. You can actually use it as a junction box to twist the wires together from the Pside-Kick switch to the wires coming out of the motor. You could use the switch on the side of the motor, but the sensing tube would need to be extended to one of the extra ports on the CSV. So it is usually easier to just use the switch that comes with the Pside-Kick kit.

All pumps need a check valve to keep water from reversing after the pump stops. With a jet pump as a booster the check valve can be on the suction line or on the discharge prior to the CSV.
 

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You should try a Cycle Sensor. I think you would like it better than a Pumptec. The Cycle Sensor is designed to work with the low amps created by a Cycle Stop Valve. So when you have to use a Dole valve or a CSV on the well pump, the Cycle Sensor is sensitive enough to know the difference between the low amps caused by the restriction of the Dole valve and the slightly lower amps that happen when it is pumping air. A Pumptec has a hard time with variations in amperage.
 

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I had hoped to complete the conversion from existing configuration (well pump and pressure tank, only) to the new configuration (storage tank filled by well pump, house plumbing pressurized by jet pump drawing from storage tank) before the grandkids descended upon us in early July, but didn't make it. Now that they've cleared out, I'm back at it.

Previously, I had added some valves so that I could either go directly from the well pump to the pressure tank (original configuration), or else go from the well pump to the tank, and then use the jet pump adjacent to the storage tank to move water through a Pside-Kick to the original pressure tank. The plan is to get a few feet of water in the storage tank, and then fire up the new jet pump for the first time to pressurize the system. That hasn't happened, for the reasons below.

Yesterday, I moved the existing well pump control box from the pressure tank (to which it was attached with baling wire!) to the inside wall of the new tank storage shed. I just abandoned the old pressure switch in place and replaced its leads to the control box with the leads from the tank level switch, a SJE Rhombus Pumpmaster Plus. I wired line voltage going through a double-pole switch near the control box, placed there for convenience because the breaker is outside the building and around the corner. From that switch, I wired through a water-heater-type 240V timer and then to L1 and L2 of the Pumptec. M1 and M2 from the Pumptec go to L1 and L2 of the pump control box. I used 10-3 wire to go run the red, black, yellow, and ground wires from the control box to an enclosed metal box under the floor of the room where the pressure tank sits, and securely wire-nutted those wires to the corresponding leads running down to the well pump.

After checking and double-checking all electrical connections, I toggled all the plumbing valves for the new configuration, energized the breaker, set the timer manually to "ON", and then flipped on the double-pole switch. I got nothing--not even smoke. No power at the control box, no orange light (or any other light) on the Pumptec, although there is voltage at L1 and L2. So, I by-passed the Pumptec. Then I got voltage at L1 and L2 on the 2-pole contactor in the control box, but the solenoid in the contactor was not energizing so no power was getting to the pump.

Thinking I may have an issue with the way I wired the level switch, I jumpered 12-gauge wires between the original pressure switch and the locations on the 2-pole contactor in the control box to which it had previously been wired, a distance of less than 20 feet. I returned the valves to original configuration, energized the system, and still got nothing at the output end of the contactor. I tried depressing the overload reset switch on the control box, but that didn't solve the problem, either. As it sits right now--doing nothing--the system appears to be electrically identical to its condition before I moved the control box. The only difference is the length of the wires between the control box and the pressure switch.

This morning, I awoke to zero water pressure and an unhappy wife. I'm completely flummoxed, and in the doghouse to boot. Any ideas?
 

FoxRedLab

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You just need to run one of the wires through the SJE Rhombus float switch to the contactor. The other hot wire comes to the contactor coil directly.
Understood. That's the way I did it, but it turns out that wasn't the problem. I either had a bad breaker or the wrong breaker! (Duh--it was bothering me that I could measure 125V at either L1-to-ground or L2-to-ground, but would measure zero between L1 and L2, when I was expecting ~240V!) Also, I found a loose connection from the old well-pump pressure switch, which is why the system wouldn't run when I reverted to the old configuration. If I have any more problems, I'll holler again. For the moment, though, I'm in a very optimistic place!
 

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I just realized that it wasn't a breaker problem: it was a breaker-installer problem! I used 1-inch Q-type double-pole breakers in my GE distribution panel, but didn't realize that, if you don't stab them in the right position, both poles will be the same phase, instead of pi-out-of-phase, which is why I was measuring zero between L1 and L2, instead of the 240V I was expecting. If my credibility with this forum was not already shot, it's bound to be now! Proceeding red-faced....
 

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2500-gallon storage tank is filling as intended. For the first 800 gallons or so, I set the water heater switch to the on position; after that, I'll revert to the programmed late-night, off-peak top-offs as called for by the float switch. I now have one night's filling under my belt, and it reached the 2000-gallon mark.

BTW, I installed a spin-down filter between the well pump and the storage tank intake, and it has already accumulated a noticeable amount of black grit that would have found its way to the bottom of the storage tank and possibly the kitchen faucet filter!

After getting the storage tank water level well above the intake pipe to the jet pump, I fired it up and followed the Pside-Kick instructions to dial in the running pressure, with a 2-3 gallon-per-minute flow, at 50 psi. It took only a slight tweak because it was pretty close as delivered. Then I shut off the faucet and watched the pressure climb to 60 psi, whereupon the pressure switch shut the pump off. I turned the faucet back on and watched the pressure fall to 40 psi, at which point the pump came back on and moved the pressure back up to 50 psi and held it until I shut the faucet off.

There were a few drip-leaks at the pipe-thread joints, and I opted to shut off the pump, drain the lines, and then disassemble, clean threads, install more Teflon tape (a couple of turns more than I used the first time), and then reassembled. I took care not to over-torque, but my arthritic hands aren't strong enough to apply the usual adage for Schedule 40 PVC assembly (hand-tight plus a half turn). I cheated and used a 12" pipe wrench and a lot of caution. Once the system was re-pressurized, the leaks were gone. From the CSV, the water line goes through a 20-inch whole-house filter and then through the old pressure tank. I changed none of the plumbing at the old pressure tank, even leaving in place the old pressure switch. Per Terry's advice last year, I figured I'd just leave the old tank in place and continue to use it until it fails. At that point, I'll see how it goes with just the CSV.

Until this afternoon, we noticed no difference (or a slight pressure improvement) in the flow in our various faucets, showers, and toilets. Then, my wife noticed a marked reduction in the pressure and water volume delivered at one of the outside faucets. She left that faucet on, using it with a hose to top off our garden pond, while she went in to use the bathroom. To our consternation, she discovered that there was no pressure (as in, dry) at any of the faucets in either of the bathrooms. I turned off the outside faucet, and pressure resumed normally in the bathrooms. This particular outside faucet is at the other end of the house from the bathrooms. I checked a different outside faucet, and got the same pressure loss. We have never observed this problem before, although we have seen a reduction in indoor pressure when we have an outside faucet on. I have no plumbing diagrams for this 22-year-old house. It's built on a slab, and some of the plumbing is in the attics, which I have been reluctant to enter today because it's 100 degrees outside. I'm wondering whether the higher operating pressure of the new system might have blown out a joint somewhere. The old system ran on a 30-50 psi pressure switch, and the new one runs on a 40-60 psi switch. I have inspected all around the house, including the ceilings, and can find no obvious evidence of a leak. The jet pump is not coming on except when we run a faucet. Does anyone have any ideas?

We are expecting a houseful of company tomorrow, so I'm thinking about jumpering the old pressure switch and switching the valves back to the original configuration until I figure out what's going on. However, if the problem is in the house, the newly-observed problems would likely persist. It seems that, as long as we don't run an outside faucet, everything inside the house is fine.
 

FoxRedLab

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What is the pressure and does the pump shut off while running the outside faucet?
Pressure at the pump is 50 psi when the faucet is running. After closing the faucet, the jet pump runs for a couple of minutes until the pressure builds to 60 psi, then shuts off. My neighbor is wondering whether the bladder has failed in my old pressure tank, but that seems inconsistent with the symptoms. I am wondering, however, what would happen if I delete the old pressure tank and go all-in with the Pside-Kick.
 

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50 PSI is 50 PSI. You should have good pressure everywhere. Now if that filter is clogged, the 50 PSI can't get through it and you will have low pressure. The only thing that will change if you disconnect the larger tank is it will only take about 30 seconds to shut off instead of a couple of minutes.
 

FoxRedLab

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50 PSI is 50 PSI. You should have good pressure everywhere. Now if that filter is clogged, the 50 PSI can't get through it and you will have low pressure. The only thing that will change if you disconnect the larger tank is it will only take about 30 seconds to shut off instead of a couple of minutes.
I should have mentioned that the pressure gauge at the old pressure tank also reads 50 psi, so that suggests that the filter between the Pside-Kick and the old pressure tank is not clogged. Besides, it seems unlikely that a brand-new filter would have clogged that quickly, when the water going through it has already been through a spin-down filter before dumping into the brand-new tank.

My neighbor tells me that the first owner of this home was involved in its specification and construction, and that he had some unusual things done with the plumbing. For one thing, he reportedly had the outside faucets plumbed on a circuit prior to the water softener (makes sense; no point in using softened water to irrigate plants) and plumbed the water softener only for kitchen hot water because he wanted to drink virgin well water from the kitchen tap (a little odd). I'm wonder whether placement of a back-flow preventer on the house side of the tee feeding the outdoor faucets would prevent the issue we've observed. By the way, the distance from the old pressure tank to the house is at least 50 feet, depending on where the water line makes its entry. (I don't even know that!!)
 

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I first thought maybe the outside faucets where attached prior to the Pside-Kick kit. That would mean they wouldn't have the correct pressure. But it would also mean the pressure would go to 60 and shut off the pump while one of these faucets is running, which is why I ask if the pump shut off. If the old tank was installed prior to the outside faucets and the new tank is not, that would be the reason for the low pressure.
 

FoxRedLab

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I first thought maybe the outside faucets where attached prior to the Pside-Kick kit.
Nope. In order after well: spin-down filter > storage tank. Then: Storage tank > Jet pump > backflow preventer > CSV > 20" whole-house filter > Old pressure tank. All of the above are in an outbuilding roughly 60-70 feet from the nearest point of the house, and all outside faucets come through the walls of the house. I see no tee-offs before the pressure tank, so I'm pretty sure that the outside faucets are teed somewhere within, under, or close to the perimeter of the house.

In the course of plumbing the pump and tank guts in the outbuilding, I installed an outside faucet on the wall of it (in addition to the one directly adjacent to the jet pump inside the building). That outside faucet line tees from the line between the jet pump and the 20" filter. I have not yet tested it to see whether I lose house pressure when it is running. I'm thinking of installing a back-flow preventer in the line to it so as to avoid sucking unsanitary water back into the system. First I want to see if that faucet has a parasitic effect on the house pressure.
 

FoxRedLab

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I'm wondering whether placement of a back-flow preventer on the house side of the tee feeding the outdoor faucets would prevent the issue we've observed. (I don't even know that!!)
Duh. I just realized that it would create a worse issue because then I couldn't get water past the backflow preventer into the house! I'm buffaloed.

Except for the faucet-pressure issue, though, the new system seems to be performing flawlessly. I will try to prepare some pictures, in case anyone is interested.
 
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