Acid Neutralizer Questions

Discussion in 'Water Softener Forum, problems, installation and r' started by phughes200, Feb 6, 2012.

  1. phughes200

    phughes200 Engineer

    Messages:
    49
    Location:
    NC
    I would like to install a acid neutralizer.

    I have read the posts here about backflushing vers non-backflushing systems. I understand that backflushing would probally be the better choice.

    Having said that, I am leaning toward a non backflushing. Installing a drain will cause my daughter asthma problems due to the chemicals in the sheetrocking mud and the dust from sanding.

    My questiions are:

    1) Can I buy a non backflushing unit and the convert later to a backflushing unit?

    2) I am on a well (being dug as we sppeak). I expect that the largest unit I could backflush would be 1.5 cubic feet. My house has three baths and three people. The current ph is between 6-6.5. When I get the test results back I will know more. Will this unit be adequate.

    3) I know that these unit add hardness. How much? At what point do I need to consider adding a water softner?
  2. ditttohead

    ditttohead Water systems designer, R&D

    Messages:
    1,941
    Location:
    Ontario California
    1: It is very easy to convert a system from upflow to backwashing in the future. Be sure to ask here before you do it so one of the guys cn recommend the easiest conversion. I would recommend using a Stainless Flexible connector (Falcon) for the inlet and outlet as they will need to be reveresd when you install a backwashing head in the future.

    2: A 1.5 cu. ft. upflow calcite is rated for up to 3.2 gpm, but will flow much higher. The effectiveness of the neutraliztion decreases as the water flow exceeds the systems rating. For your well, a real water test and temperature are critical to properly size a calcite system. That being said, for most regular houses up to 3 bathrooms, a 1.5 Cu. Ft. calcite system is adequate.

    3. The amount of hardness that the calcite system will add is based on the pH, flow, temperature, etc. There are too many variables to make any accurate guess. The hardness only needs to be removed if you desire soft water. Hard water will have some negative affects on your appliances, water heater efficiency, etc. Submit your water test and I am sure we can get make some recommendations. If your well hardness is very low, then a couple grains of hardness that are added by the calcite may not be worth treating.

    Personally, I prefer the water I use to be below 3-5 grains. Anything above that and I recommend a softener.

    upflow calcite.jpg
  3. Gary Slusser

    Gary Slusser That's all folks!

    phuges, I would not use Corrosex, it over corrects with your type pH. And I wouldn't suggest an upflow filter larger than 1.0. At least until I knew more about the well depth, how deep the pump was set if it's a submersible and what gpm it was. If a deep well jet, how deep the foot valve/J-body is, or if it was a shallow well jet pump and what gpm any jet pump was.

    I say that after years of treating a lot of acidic water in PA which has some of the most acidic water in the country.

    And I would go the backwashed type filter now instead of later because it's the right thing to do plus the cost of a separate control valve being much more than when bought as part of a filter.

    Since the well is being drilled now, there may not be much dry wall demolition to install a drain line for the filter (and possible softener) and dust can be minimal by using a shop vac during sanding. Or maybe run a 3/4" ID (or1" ID) drain line outside now that both can use as the driller brings the water line into the house.
  4. ditttohead

    ditttohead Water systems designer, R&D

    Messages:
    1,941
    Location:
    Ontario California
    Gary, you are correct. That is why I mentioned the calcite and not the corosex. The chart is from my catalog page, and corosex is usually used for acid neutralization in industrial processes. We use it during dairy and pharaceutical ultrpure water system passivaton processes or cooling tower and steam boiler chemical acid descaling. We run the waste water to the drain through the corosex so we dont exceed the lower pH limits of the sewer system. For a well system, it is not recommended. It has a tendancy to over correct and create a diluted form of Milk of magnesia. Great if you are trying to cleanse your bowels. Due to "grey water reuse" rules, it is not legal to do in many states, but... you can run the backwash from the calcite system to the lawn. Be sure to test it for a little while to make sure it doesnt have a negative affect on the foliage, but it really shouldnt.
  5. Gary Slusser

    Gary Slusser That's all folks!

    The only time a homeowner should use Corrosex in an AN filter would be as part of a mixed bed due to a lower than 6.0 pH. And then only up to 20% of the total volume of mineral, and that may be too much. Otherwise there is serious over correction and potential water quality problems.

    I would not tell anyone to run any water treatment drain water on the lawn. Although maybe down over the bank into the woods (a softener would kill trees/vegetation though) or into a 'dry well' well away from their well.
  6. phughes200

    phughes200 Engineer

    Messages:
    49
    Location:
    NC
    Thanks for the replies. This is a older home, not new construction. The only place I have to put the unit in is in a closet. I will need to open a wall to install the necessary standpipe and trap. I am still trying to figure out the best way too vent this. My guess is that I will have to use a AAV.

    The water test will not be done for a week and the results will be done for another two weeks. I can answer some of your questions.

    The well is 405' deep and is a six inch well. The pump is set at 240'. The pump is 3/4 hp. The static water level is 20'. The pump can pump 10 gpm with the static water level at 20', 6.3 gpm at 180' and 2.5 gpm at 240'. The well capacity is 5 gpm. The outlet is 1" pex to the tank under the house. From there to the neutralizer is 3/4 Pex. All existing pipes are 3/4" copper. The pressure is set at 40/60 psi with a 20 gallon tank.

    Realisticly, if the ph is between 6-6.5, how corrosive is this to the pipes? Most of the pipes were replaced five years ago when the house was rebuilt. There might be a few small section that are forty years old but I doubt it. Maybe the old supply line but that will be replaced this week. I doubt they recycled any from the orginal job. I will try to find out.
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2012
  7. Gary Slusser

    Gary Slusser That's all folks!

    I would not have used PEX for the line from the pump/well to the pressure tank/house. The best choice is PE pipe, it has a true ID where PEX is reduced because it is copper tubing size which means the OD is maintained, not the ID. PE is iron pipe size meaning the ID is maintained. A 1" PE has a larger ID than 1" PEX. And if I'm right PEX costs more than PE. PEX after the AN filter and softener would be fine but full 1" to the AN filter and then a softener is a very good idea.

    A pH of 6.0 or 6.5 is acidic enough to add some copper to the water which means it has dissolved some of the inside of the copper tubing which means it will thin it which over an unknown amount of time leads to pin hole leaks. That is probably why some of the cooper was replaced with PEX.

    As to the equipment and a trapped stand pipe in a closet and no way to add a vent... if the house was mine, I'd go no vent and if later I was selling the house and someone said something about no vent I'd tell them you can buy it this way or, I'll remove the equipment and stand pipe and you can buy the house without any of it, your choice.
  8. phughes200

    phughes200 Engineer

    Messages:
    49
    Location:
    NC
    Thanks.

    Just to clarify, everything was 3/4 copper until today. PEX is what I believe the well driller used. His choice, not mine.

    As to the vent. I am trying to follow code. If push comes to shove I will elminate but I can probally use a AAV. Just more hassle.

    As to the 3/4 run to AN, that I could change if it necessary.

    Do you have any recommendation on the best way to run the pex up the finish wall and out to the AN. My initial idea is PEX to a right angle connector and the either PEX or SS braded hose to the AN. Another option a combination PEX and CPVC. This would be in a closet under the stair where the HW heater is located. I would like to keep this neat and still has a little storage space.

    Right now the water comes out of the well at 57 degrees. The PH is showing as 7.1 on my meter. However the well still contains bleach which I assume is throwing off the meter. The water will be tested at a state approved lab.
  9. Gary Slusser

    Gary Slusser That's all folks!

    It could be PE since it was installed by the driller in NC. PE is usually black or blue. PEX could be opaque, white or blue and will measure about 1 1/8" OD, PE will be larger. PE uses SS hose clamps.

    I installed enough equipment under steps that I never want to do it again. 1" CPVC would be a better choice than PEX because it is straight and rigid and easier to make connections with. Yes you would go up the wall to an elbow and off it to wherever the line needs to go.
  10. phughes200

    phughes200 Engineer

    Messages:
    49
    Location:
    NC
    Gary,

    It was 1" white PEXa up to the tank (in the crawlspace). 3/4" PEXa up to the orginal shut off valve (30 feet away).

    I was surprised that the ID of 3/4" PEX was that that much smaller than 3/4" copper. If I had known that, I would have told the installer to use 1" PEX up to the 3/4" copper shutoff. Once the system is running, I will check the flow rate at the fixtures.

    Can the AN tanks be partially buried?
  11. phughes200

    phughes200 Engineer

    Messages:
    49
    Location:
    NC
    Gary,

    Can explain the advantage of a backflushing unit over an non-backflushing unit?

    As I understand it, in a backflushing system water enters the top, flows through the media and enters a tube at the base for the return trip to feed the house. When backflushing occurs the flow is reversed and a high rate of water enters at bottom, flows upwards and exits at top. I assume this lifts the media and helps redistribute the media and elminates any channeling. In the non-back flushing system, the water enter the top and is feed to the bottom and then up through the media. I suspect the pressure drop could be higher. Couldn't this unit be flush by opening a fixture that would allow a high rate of flow? For example, my whirlpool tub facuet can deliver 6 gpm.
  12. Gary Slusser

    Gary Slusser That's all folks!

    Yes an AN filter and softener can be buried in the crawl space as long as they or the drain line doesn't freeze.

    I've had guy buy a piece of like 12" ID, larger is better to get a tank in if you can't stand it up straight to put it in, plastic corrugated culvert pipe and put that in a hole with just a few inches sticking out to keep dirt/gravel from falling in to the hole over time and then putting the equipment in that. Then if you ever have a need to remove a tank you don't have to dig.

    I've had a guy that buried tanks along the back of his house up to just inches below the bottom of the control valves. Then he built a short lattice type e sided 'box' with a roof to keep water, sun etc. off the equipment. I wouldn't have put things so deep.

    If you don't bury the equipment in the crawl space, to go to a 50' roll of 1" 100 or 125 psi rated PE pipe is very affordable and all you'd need is a few fittings and a box or two of 10 SS hose clamps. You should be able to get that stuff at your hardware or big box store or a well pump or plumbing supply house. I'd suggest dark gray PVC insert x threaded fittings.
  13. Gary Slusser

    Gary Slusser That's all folks!

    Backwashing does as you say plus it removes dirt from the mineral. Up flow has the dirt at the bottom of the tank and I doubt that any amount of trying to wash it up through all the mineral would work. Also, dirt could block the slits in the bottom basket on the distributor tube.
  14. Gary Slusser

    Gary Slusser That's all folks!

    phughes, I see in a post above you say the pump can pump 10 gpm at some depth. I also see in the Pumps and Tanks forum you mention 5 gpm.

    What gpm is the pump? If they didn't tell you then give me the model number, with Gould's the first number is the gpm; I.E 10****** is a 10 gpm, a 5***x is a 5 gpm etc..

    Ya shoulda gone with a larger gpm pump set deeper in the well IMO but I didn't say anything because the deed was done already and the 10 gpm you mentioned here should be sufficient to properly backwash a 1.5' AN filter. The P-Sdekick (with CSV) would have been a better choice than a 20 gal pressure tank too but you can add a CSV now or later.
  15. phughes200

    phughes200 Engineer

    Messages:
    49
    Location:
    NC
    The pump is an 7GS07422C (7 gpm) set at 240 feet. The static water is at 30 feet. The installer (and the charts) said initially, it would pump 10 gpm. When the water level drops to 180 feet, it will pump 6.3 gpm and at 240 feet I would get 2.5 gpm. With a capacity (the rate water flows into the well) of 5 gpm, I doubt the water level would ever get to 240 feet. I have run the pump for over 6 hours nonstop using a garden hose and have been getting a steady at 6+ gpm and the flow rate has not dropped. I am assuming the hose length and size is reducing the flow.

    I really don't see the need for a bigger pump unless I am missing something. I do not plan on irrigation. If I do, I will use lake water. It might have been useful for a geothermal system but I don't know if the well capacity is enough. It would have allow me to consider a bigger AN but do I really need a larger unit? My family size is three people and we usally only take one shower at a time.

    Based on what I was paying the installer, I decide to trust his judgement. He did offer a larger pump 1 hp but both of us felt it would be overkill unless I wanted lawn irrigation. At 240 feet, I have 300 gallons of water storage with a replacement rate of 5 gpm.

    I did look at the CSV and liked the concept. Once I try the new system, I will decide if I want it. The installer did say he used them when people had irrigation but felt it wasn't needed for my application.
  16. Gary Slusser

    Gary Slusser That's all folks!

    As long as the static water level stays up you should be OK unless you start using more than 10 gpm. I would have suggested a higher gpm like 10-15 gpm and then whatever hp was need to pump from say 150'.

    That 5 gpm is called thr recovery rate of the well, your capacity or storage is the usable water in the well and a 6" well has (IIRC) 1.5 gal/ft from the pump inlet to the top of the water.
  17. phughes200

    phughes200 Engineer

    Messages:
    49
    Location:
    NC
    Thanks for clearing up the terms.

    Once, I get the test results, I will return for treatment suggestions.
  18. phughes200

    phughes200 Engineer

    Messages:
    49
    Location:
    NC
    Looks like I am okay. The total hardness is 43 mg/l, ph is 8.1 and total alkalinity of 54 mg/L. Totally different than my neighbors. My well ended up being deeper than theirs.
    Last edited: Apr 26, 2012
  19. Gary Slusser

    Gary Slusser That's all folks!

    Very good, thanks for the feed back.
Similar Threads: Acid Neutralizer
Forum Title Date
Water Softener Forum, problems, installation and r Is it safe to run chlorine water into acid neutralizer from well shock treatment? May 21, 2013
Water Softener Forum, problems, installation and r Low water pressure from water coming out of acid neutralizer. Bypass pressure is OK May 19, 2013
Water Softener Forum, problems, installation and r Recommendations on Acid Neutralizers Dec 10, 2012
Water Softener Forum, problems, installation and r Please help with acid neutralizer questions Apr 6, 2012
Water Softener Forum, problems, installation and r Acid Neutralizer suggestions Mar 10, 2012

Share This Page