A.O. SMITH water heaters...good or bad??

[Master Plumber Mark]

just fought with a 2003 50 gallon PRO MAX GAS

NEW STYLE SEALED COMBUSTION this week..........it lost.

I literally changed all the parts on it,
had the gas company come out to check the meter and presuure

lowered the chimmney about 4 inches for better draft...


this piece of junk just kept fighting me......it would not stay lit.....

so we finally took it out and installed a BRADFORD WHITE

problem solved...24 hours and counting....


this is the first one I have tangled with and I am wondering if others
have had any similar problems....

this unit is poorley designed and is probably as bad or not
worse in design thatn the FLAME LOCK WHIRLPOOL

look at the p[ics of the air intake filter

look at the goosey thermocoupling they use...

http://www.weilhammerplumbing.com/galleryi/

 

[Finnegan]

I believe that AO Smith makes different lines of ehaters, but as far as I know they have a very good reputation. You mention that you lowered your chimney for better draft. I could be wrong, but I believe that a taller chimney will give you more draft. Some chimneys are oversized in that they are too wide (not high) to get a good draft. Common sense might suggest that the larger interior volume of a chimney dicates more draft, but this is actually not the case. For example, my town requires that if you remove a boiler from a chimney and leave only a water heater that the installer certify that the chimney will provide enough draft to service only the water heater.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[Master Plumber Mark]

smith heaters

we trouble shot this heater all week long ...

someone else plumbed this house in 03
and things were doing fine till this week.

Installed in the garage,

the chimmney was literally going about 4 inches the wrong way

to both the furnace and the water heater.....

so therefore.... we deduced ......(we are good at that)

that is was a back draft of some sort....

and we fixed that problem.......not of our makeing....

we also changed out the burner assembly and changed out
the thermostat


also called the gas company to have the pressure checked
at the meter


none of this worked to solve the problem

The SMITH heater has beeen scrapped out for parts
and is in the junk yard and

the new Bradford is working fine...and peachey....

I hope I dont have to tanglewith any more of these

 

[Cass]

Just wondering, did you check the portion of the chimney that goes through the heater by pulling the spiral?

I have replaced more A.O.s that were under and just past warrenty than any other brand. I replace very very few that are over 8 years old.

I have to say that the oldest gas heater I have ever replaced was a 32 year old A.O..

 

[Master Plumber Mark]

yes

that was pullled up too.....nothing wrond with it...

they used to be a good unit till they moved to
Mexico in 96. We still see 30 year old ones
occasionally....


We do a lot of change outs of them only 2-4 years old
all the time...

 

[perrycat]

really long AO Smith reply

I hate the "smart valve ones....it's anything but smart...BTW read that even something as dumb as having the power for the motor plugged into something that's also on a flourescent light will mess it up too.
Now....on a different heater, I'm trying to get all the information I can on all kinds of heaters, and reading Bradford White's service manual, I copied it too, it's going in my truck with alot of other brands manuals....anyway, it gives a test for checking if the ECO switch is bad or not, now this AO Smith with the Smart valve I'm talking about, I hate to admitt this but I took a million dollar gamble and decided they needed a new gas valve, and I was right, because the AO Smith smart valve heater, if the ECO cuts out, you need a new gas valve and I tested everything else, motor, made sure it was installed with the right ammount of bends, right size piping, ( wer're talking exaust here).... and tested the sensors and vacuum thingy, ......and gambled on it needs a gas valve because I coulnd't find out where to test the ECO, it's hidden Wayyyy back inside where the thermastat goes into the tank between the gas valve and the tank.......there's a wire but its soo teeny I didn't want to fool with it and mess it up.....

So.........I was right, it WAS the ECO and the heater fired up and the little green light came on fine and I collected $700 + dollars and went to the next call.........Now....I read in that Bradford White manual a test for the ECO operation, ........here it is........

ECO (Energy Cut Off) TESTING
Step 1. Disconnect thermocouple from combination thermostat/gas valve.
Step 2. Using a multimeter capable of measuring Ohms (or continuity), attach one
lead (alligator clip) to the pilot tube. Insert the other lead (probe) fully into
the magnet opening, Be sure the probe makes contact only at the top center
of the magnet opening. Do not allow the probe to make contact with the
threaded sides of the opening.
Step 3. If continuity is indicated, the ECO is OK. If continuity is not indicated, the ECO has opened and the
combination thermostat/gas valve must be replaced.

.........Now, my question is......would this test work also on AO Smith's and even Rheem/Ruud? and State??

Also, on the original thing, the guy with the heater that wouldn't stay lit, I'm really glad for you you got it fixed and I like Bradford White better...but did you by chance check the gas pressure with a manometer? My company is really big on doing that, and I've never done that before, and had to even go buy a manometer, and you know, we DO find quite a few heaters with not enough gas pressure.......Also on Bradford White electrics, they never set the thermostats at the right temperature, you have to open them and turn it up every single time, and their rep who had a "class" at our work, totally denied this swearing on a stack of Bibles they're factory set exactly where they need to be.
Sorry so long but I love water heater problems!
Perrycat

 

[Master Plumber Mark]

testing power vents

sounds like you have really been up to your eyebrows in
these power vent units.....

I dont like the Smith power vent at all.....
that smart valve is a pain in the ass

and it looks like just one good power surge and its fried..

I wuold guess the customer probably hit the roof with the $700 bill.
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Usually the Brad ford power vents are pretty simple ,
but I am going to have to go to the next class just to
get up to speed on them again.....

honestly ---we dont have enough problems
with them to keep sharp about it...


the Brad ford is now in for about 4 days and counting ... no call backs on it..

 

[perrycat]

Glad the heater worked ! Well, no we're not flooded with power vents but they're gaining popularity I think.......they're supposed to be high output heaters which means the recovery time is shorter and by that maybe cheaper to run.
And the 700? Well the heater was a 2004 or 03, and I asked him which he'd rather do, I personally would have rather put in a new heater.....but that was $2400 with my company....it was a 75 gal..and it was pretty new so he went with the fix.
Perrycat

 

[Cass]

Where are you located that you can charge and get $2400.00 for a power vent, I want to move there. Seems high to me for a swap out unless there were big problems with the install.

 

[Master Plumber Mark]

75 gallon power vents

depending on where you live and who you work for....

if it is "flat rate" priceing the 2400 is probably average...

we do htem for about $1700 and I try to talk them

into the 10 year tank warranty for another 200


of course a 75 gallon takes three men and a boy to get those damn things

up and down pretty white stairs ....

.so personally I think its well worth any thing you

feel like chargeing..

 

[Cass]

I missed the 75 gal. part.

 

[Dunbar Plumbing]

MPM, post a picture of the spark arrestor on a Bradford-White.

I want to know if they have the same setup. Otherwise the Bradford-White has limitations of providing safety guidelines as set forth under FVIR standards.

FVIR is here to stay but it does provide a safer situation for all. The alternative is a disaster waiting to happen with spilled oil based paint or gas in a gas can.

So many homeowners are unaware of the potential fire hazard it poses.

 

[Master Plumber Mark]

Rugged-- duhh??

I dont understand what you are talking about....


All water heater brands had to pass --- government mandates here...
antsi specs ect ---UL.--Lab ---ect


So what are you talking about??? The power vents or what??


What I am more concerned with is the designs each have come up with

and which ones are best and how long they are going to last without

problems... hopefully 10 years or more ....


thats probably becasue I put in around 10 -15 each week-
and I dont need the future troubles




Now by some MIRACLE the Whirlpool FLAME LOCK was able to
pass all these goverment tests but they are complete junk


I tangled with a SMITH heater this week as already posted...
and I dont think that much of it......
So I feel it will clog up over time and I am wary of installing them......

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These days I put in Bradford white and Rheem only
becasue they both seem to be about the most trustworthy....

Bradford white seems to be a better design
so far-so good .....going on 3+ years now.


Rheem has its drawbacks...but its still pretty good
I dont like its safety system and have had to
take out a number that self -destructed...after they
overheated..




of course its all my opinion---- whatever its worth

take it or leave it



http://www.weilhammerplumbing.com/products/

 

[Cass]

There are no perfect heaters just some better than others. A plumber friend just installed a Rheem gas and the valve wouldn work/light once. Bad from the factory. Must have been 4:59 PM on a friday.

 

[crhollowaty]

Help! I am racking my brain trying to figure out the problem with my A.O. Smith natural gas water heater. The heater has been operating just at 4 years. It is model FCV 50 100, Seriel No. GH03-1790318-100.

Here is the problem: The burner and pilot would not stay lit. If and when the burner would light the flame was erratic, not smooth and even. The burner would only stay light for may 2-3 minutes then both pilot and burner would go out.

Here is what was tried to remedy the problem:

The draft was checked from the water heater through the roof. There was not obstruction, draft was great.

The air intake was checked for dirt under the water heater and at the intake filter. All was cleaned with a vacuum as well as an air compressor. Didn't help.

The burner/pilot/thermcouple unit was changed out. This unit comes out as one piece so the whole thing has to be changed. We tried to run the new unit with the existing gas valve/thermostat. Didn't help.

The gas valve/thermostat unit was changed out. We tried to run the new gas valve with the new burner assembly as well we changed back to the old burner assembly. Didn't help.

The gas company check the incoming gas pressure. 7 " water. Water heater calls for 4-14.

We checked the exhaust port running through the center of the water heater to see if there was an obstruction. We could only see down so far with a flash light due to the port have a bend and there was nothing.

The furnace and the water heater eventually run through the same exhaust through the roof. With it being summer, the furnace is off and there is no exhaust from the furnace that was pushing back on the water heater exhaust. As well if the exhaust was not escaping from the water heater and/or the furnace (when on) our CO monitor (electric, not battery) right in the room would be going off. For grins and giggles we turned the furnace on and checked the flow coming out through the roof as well at the exhaust pull off at the water heater. There was excellent flow up through the flue and there was no back draft to the water heater. We put a piece of paper at the flue taking the exhaust from the water (not the port coming up through the water heater) both with and without the furnace running and the paper was pulled in. This proves that at least there was a draft from the units through the roof.

This particular model of water heater does not have an induced draft motor; so that was not the problem.

I believe we exhausted all parts of the water heater that could be changed out and yet the pilot and burner still would not stay light. As mentioned above, when we could get the burner to light, the flame would be very erratic, not a smooth, even flame that one should see. We also noticed that the viewing plate to look at the burner was extremely hot as well the exhaust port exterior casing attached at the center of the water heater was very hot. We read and reviewed the owners manual 10 ways to Tuesday which was some help for trouble shooting the above items but again nothing worked.

I would like to mention that all of the services performed were done by a licenced technician, who is very highly recommended by our builder and others in the area, as well as verbal direction of A.O. Smith field service rep once the technician completed the typical trouble shooting items. We even tried calling technicians in the area for advice. No help was found.

One little tid bit on this water heater. We already have had to change the dip tube due to inadequate construction material.

Final decision after working on this thing for 6+ hours, the AO Smith heater was removed and within about the 1 1/2 including pick time, we had a new Rheem heater in place. The Rheem heater started up great, the flame stayed even, the pilot stayed light, the viewing plate stayed cool (within touching temperature), and the exhaust off of the heater stayed cool, and we are happy campers now that we have hot water.

But, I am still curious what in the world could have been wrong with that water heater. The only thing that came to mind of which we couldn't get to was there must have been something wrong with the baffles in the exhaust port from the burner exhaust outlet to and through the port bend that was not allowing air to be pulled off of the burner area which increased the temperature thus trip the high temperature switch to shut down the unit. Nothing else makes since.

If anyone out there has any answers please for my own sanity, let me know what you think the problem could have been and if the problem could have been solved. I am very interested. Sorry the message is so long.

 

[Jimbo]

All of the brands, naturally, met the spec. for preventing explosions. It is the reliability on a life-of-the-unit basis that has been problematic for some of the smith brands.

Early on, the industry realized that the new spec was going to be a challenge with regard to the operating environment, specifically what they called the LDO problem....lint, dust, oil.

Rheem and Bradford White seemed to get it "right" while others did not.