A BAD PUMP,A BAD CONTROL BOX OR BOTH?

[Ballvalve]

I would discover the direction of rotation from Grunfos and test it above ground before setting. Interesting that a pump can run in reverse and pump enough water to make pressure. You can switch ANY of the three lines to reverse rotation.

 

[Valveman]

I wouldn't run that pump unless it is full of water. The seal in an above ground type pump and the wear rings in a submersible would be damaged in a short amount of time. You can switch T1/T2 or you can switch T2/T3, but switching T1/T3 will not change rotation.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[Boycedrilling]

Valveman is right, as always. We don't normally check rotation of 3 phase submersible motors before installation. You have a 50% chance of getting it right. A submersible pump running in reverse rotation will pump about 60% of normal. You start it up, check flow & pressure. Then shut it off, reverse two leads and check it again. It's very obvious which is the correct rotation. On wells with a deep static water level, often times the pump won't pump water to the surface in reverse.

On larger 3 phase motors, the next step it to balance the loads on each leg as much as possible. You check the amperage on each leg, then move each wire one position. Amperage is checked again. The wire are moved again and amperage is checked again. One of the three setups will have the least imbalance between legs. This is how you want to leave the pump wired. Moving all three wires one position will keep the motor rotation the same. Swapping any two wires changes the direction of rotation.

On lineshaft turbines, the motor is not connected to the line shaft, or "clutched up", until the rotation is checked. If the motor were to be run in reverse, it would unscrew the lineshaft couplings down hole. I have seen lineshaft come up thru the motor bonnet, then thru the pump house roof when the motor was wired incorrectly.

 

[horacio]

Just curious - do you have 208 volts or 240 volts with your 3 phase? I don't have any 3 phase well motors but suppose they are rated for either voltage.

Can you please recomend me a surge protector I have to buy for the pump,it is required by Grundfos in order for the warranty to be valid. TKS

 

[horacio]

Valveman is right, as always. We don't normally check rotation of 3 phase submersible motors before installation. You have a 50% chance of getting it right. A submersible pump running in reverse rotation will pump about 60% of normal. You start it up, check flow & pressure. Then shut it off, reverse two leads and check it again. It's very obvious which is the correct rotation. On wells with a deep static water level, often times the pump won't pump water to the surface in reverse.

On larger 3 phase motors, the next step it to balance the loads on each leg as much as possible. You check the amperage on each leg, then move each wire one position. Amperage is checked again. The wire are moved again and amperage is checked again. One of the three setups will have the least imbalance between legs. This is how you want to leave the pump wired. Moving all three wires one position will keep the motor rotation the same. Swapping any two wires changes the direction of rotation.

On lineshaft turbines, the motor is not connected to the line shaft, or "clutched up", until the rotation is checked. If the motor were to be run in reverse, it would unscrew the lineshaft couplings down hole. I have seen lineshaft come up thru the motor bonnet, then thru the pump house roof when the motor was wired incorrectly.

Can you please tell me if phase balancing and phase sequencing yields about the same results or there are two different procedures. For the sequencing at least it does exist the testers. TKS

 

[horacio]

I have the "fake" 3 phase on my property. It is done with just 2 transformers, and I have two lines 120v and then 240 between them. The third line, 'stinger' line is @210v to ground. It varies by country. This type of 3 phase should only start motors about 15 HP in size. This I saw proven at my shop when we had big production and too many motors started by chance - Transformer blew up and created quite a fire event. 'Real' 3 phase has 3 transformers and usually comes in at 400+ volts and one must have a stepdown transformer to obtain 120/240 circuits. Only for very large production.

Bad news that Franklin has sold it's soul for cheap labor. But I suppose the quality remains high. They still make larger motors in the USA.

I am wondering where Grunfos makes its smaller well pumps and motors. We have a Grunfos Mfg. plant near here, they were making circulator pumps. I suppose it is a combination of many countries parts and labor.

Apparently the deep well water pumps are made in a plant Grudfos have in Fresno,California

 

[horacio]

I wouldn't run that pump unless it is full of water. The seal in an above ground type pump and the wear rings in a submersible would be damaged in a short amount of time. You can switch T1/T2 or you can switch T2/T3, but switching T1/T3 will not change rotation.

Thanks,that is something nice to know. I have an open oil barrel to test the pumps submerged in water with piping,a valve and a gauge to check
pressure. Grundfos indicates that the motor should rotate CCW looking at the shaft and that is also a neat information,makes things easy. TKS

 

[Valveman]

Can you please recomend me a surge protector I have to buy for the pump,it is required by Grundfos in order for the warranty to be valid. TKS

Yeah like they are going to come over and check to see if you have a surge protector. Just use a good lightning arrestor in the starter box. And don't be close to the lightning arrestor when you energize the motor. I have had them blow up on me and throw white hot metal past my face.

 

[Valveman]

Thanks,that is something nice to know. I have an open oil barrel to test the pumps submerged in water with piping,a valve and a gauge to check
pressure. Grundfos indicates that the motor should rotate CCW looking at the shaft and that is also a neat information,makes things easy. TKS

Even the barrel test is not good for them. At least start them against a closed valve. Without the proper head on them the impellers fly up into an upthrust condition, which isn't good for them. And you can't see the CCW rotation if the pump is in a barrel. Now you can run the motor for a minute without the pump attached. Then you can see the rotation.

 

[Valveman]

Valveman is right, as always. We don't normally check rotation of 3 phase submersible motors before installation. You have a 50% chance of getting it right. A submersible pump running in reverse rotation will pump about 60% of normal. You start it up, check flow & pressure. Then shut it off, reverse two leads and check it again. It's very obvious which is the correct rotation. On wells with a deep static water level, often times the pump won't pump water to the surface in reverse.

On larger 3 phase motors, the next step it to balance the loads on each leg as much as possible. You check the amperage on each leg, then move each wire one position. Amperage is checked again. The wire are moved again and amperage is checked again. One of the three setups will have the least imbalance between legs. This is how you want to leave the pump wired. Moving all three wires one position will keep the motor rotation the same. Swapping any two wires changes the direction of rotation.

On lineshaft turbines, the motor is not connected to the line shaft, or "clutched up", until the rotation is checked. If the motor were to be run in reverse, it would unscrew the lineshaft couplings down hole. I have seen lineshaft come up thru the motor bonnet, then thru the pump house roof when the motor was wired incorrectly.

When you move all three wires one place to the right for balancing the phases, sometimes the unbalance will go with the wire, sometimes it stays with the line phase. If it moves with the wire the unbalance problem is from the motor. If it stays with the line phase the problem is in the supply, and the power company maybe able to tune the transformers to reduce the unbalance.

I always use a non-reverse ratchet on turbine motors. That way it just buzzes if you have it backwards, and the water won't spin the pump back after you turn it off. But yeah it is amazing how far those shafts will come up if you let a turbine run backwards. Had an out of state company beat me out of a lineshaft turbine job on a local city park. They put them on VFD's. After the first year they came out to replace the cooling fans in the VFD's and got the turbines re-wired backwards. Shafts came unscrewed and popped through the cover. They had the gall to ask to use one of my pumps hoist to fix them with since they hired that done the year before and that company had gone out of business. I let them use it, but I put some big signs on the truck that said..."You wouldn't be having this problem if you had used Cycle Stop Valves on this job like you should have."

 

[horacio]

Even the barrel test is not good for them. At least start them against a closed valve. Without the proper head on them the impellers fly up into an upthrust condition, which isn't good for them. And you can't see the CCW rotation if the pump is in a barrel. Now you i can run the motor for a minute without the pump attached. Then you can see the rotation.

Thanks Valveman,that is what I had in mind,inmerse in water just the motor and start it just to check rotation. The closed valve procedure is new
to me,so thanks for warning me about.

 

[horacio]

Yeah like they are going to come over and check to see if you have a surge protector. Just use a good lightning arrestor in the starter box. And don't be close to the lightning arrestor when you energize the motor. I have had them blow up on me and throw white hot metal past my face.

My lord,thanks for your recomendation and warning. We do have here lots of lightning strikes during the winter,but since I have the electrical pole
with the transformers at 40 yds from the pump I don't worry too much,the electrical company install lighting arrestors on this poles. But I will
follow your advise anyhow,more protection is better. Thanks again

 

[Valveman]

Just the motor by itself does not need to be submerged to test it. Just don't run it for more than a minute or so.

 

[DonL]

Why not just look at your breaker box to connect the phases properly ?

This should not be a guessing game, Unless I missed something.


Good Luck on your project.

 

[Valveman]

Why not just look at your breaker box to connect the phases properly ?

This should not be a guessing game, Unless I missed something.


Good Luck on your project.

This poster changed from a single phase motor to a three phase motor. So there is no longer a capacitor start box with the red overload buttons on the bottom.

DonL is there a way to make sure the rotation of a three phase motor is correct by looking in the breaker box? If so I didn't know this. I always just swap rotation and see which way pumps the most water.

 

[Reach4]

Well pump installers will pull it every 20ft then cut it, then they recommend using well pump pipe sch 120 straight pipe 20ft sections going back with since now your poly pipe is cut in multiple places.

I have never pulled or set a well pump. But I am confident your statement does not work at all as a general statement. There are very many well pump installers who are equipped to handle poly pipe properly.

 

[Valveman]

Lets see how you like it when you got to pull the pump full of water on that sorry black pipe 220ft, I hope you a pipe jack or a machine to pull it for you. Well pump installers will pull it every 20ft then cut it, then they recommend using well pump pipe sch 120 straight pipe 20ft sections going back with since now your poly pipe is cut in multiple places.

I would be very unhappy if a pump installer cut my poly pipe into small sections. If you have the tools to hold the pipe while you cut it, there is no reason why you can't use those tools to get another bite every 20 and not have to cut the pipe.

This is a Do It Yourself forum. So we try to help people who are doing it themselves, as well as suggest when that is not possible and a professional is needed. I have personally pulled pumps by hand on poly pipe that is 200'+, especially when the static water level is high. So it can be done.

 

[Reach4]

If I were considering pulling and restoring a long poly well pipe as a one-time thing, I think I would see if somebody rents an Up-Z-Dazy or Pul-A-Pump nearby. Odds are against it for a given location, but there are rental places that do. I suspect that having a torque arrestor would mess up using those devices.

 

[Valveman]

The crane rig can only go so

A crane truck is not designed to pull polly, it is designed to pull straight pipe in the air every 20ft.

I understand about the bad back. Blew a disc out in 1988 lifting a 40HP motor.

A crane truck will pull poly just fine if you have the clamps to hold the pipe. I have also done it with some good nylon straps as long as the pipe was dry.

 

[DonL]

This poster changed from a single phase motor to a three phase motor. So there is no longer a capacitor start box with the red overload buttons on the bottom.

DonL is there a way to make sure the rotation of a three phase motor is correct by looking in the breaker box? If so I didn't know this. I always just swap rotation and see which way pumps the most water.

The breaker box feed should be in proper sequence.

Phase A-B-C
L1-L2-L3