A BAD PUMP,A BAD CONTROL BOX OR BOTH?

[horacio]

I have a Goulds 3HP pump w/Franklin motor.
Pump stop working,checked control box and found a bad start capacitor, Did replace it and control box protectors kept turning the pump off. Pulled the pum out,removed the pump from motor,placed the motor
inside a 15 glns of water and the problem persisted. Ordered a new Franklin deluxe 3 hp contro box and the
motor did start although the sound was louder than normal and felt an vibration that disapeared a couple a minutes later. Checking with the hook ampmeter black line showed almost 11 amps,the yellow line 7.58amps
and the red line 7.8 amps. Did check resistance between lines yellow and red and yellow and black and found
not resistance at all where it should be 10.7 to 13.1 k ohms and 3 to 3.6 k ohms according to Franklin specs.
I read somplace that excesive amperage could be a signal of a bad starter relay,but this box is brand new.
Also the big diference of amaperage comsuption between lines black (11 amps) and Yellow 7.58 looks that
something is real bad here. Need you expert advise to what to do and where is the problem.
Thanks in advance for your needed help.
By the way,the Franklin DELUXE box has nothing more than a cheap Chineese made 2 pole,40 amps contactor,same as those found in line for $12.85. It is easy to make the conversion,even the holes to
attach the contactor are predrilled in all new standard boxes.

 

[Valveman]

No resistance is not a good thing between wires. It means you have a short between legs in the motor. But then I don't see how it would run at all, especially at those amps. So maybe you had the meter on the wrong setting or something. Do you have any resistance between the wires and ground?

 

[Sponsor]

 

[horacio]

No resistance is not a good thing between wires. It means you have a short between legs in the motor. But then I don't see how it would run at all, especially at those amps. So maybe you had the meter on the wrong setting or something. Do you have any resistance between the wires and ground?

Thanks Valveman for coming to aid me. I did that test and shoes open,no resistance at all. I will try again to measure that resistance betewwn wires on Monday. At this point I am losing hope on that pump,I may have to buy a new whenever I save the money. Pumps here cost almost double
than in the U.S because shipping and customs charges. will let you know. THanks again

 

[horacio]

No resistance is not a good thing between wires. It means you have a short between legs in the motor. But then I don't see how it would run at all, especially at those amps. So maybe you had the meter on the wrong setting or something. Do you have any resistance between the wires and ground?

 

[horacio]

I did check for resistance between the drop wires and the pump body and there is nothing,open.
Checked again the resistance between the drop wires and did not obtain any resistance,is closed circuit,at the scale
of 1 ohm was able to read .005 ( 5 thousands of 1 ohm). I noticed that the red wire maintains 355 volts and drawing
6.97 amps. Is this a start relay problem?. Another question please. Someone is selling on ebay a brand new 2 hp,220v,3 phase Franklin
motor with not conecting wire leads,is something new like a plung in type cord for this motors.? I am going 3 phase if have
to buy a new pump and a CSV1A will be installed because looks that in reality is important and beneficial in the long run. Thanks

 

[Reach4]

Checked again the resistance between the drop wires and did not obtain any resistance,is closed circuit,at the scale
of 1 ohm was able to read .005 ( 5 thousands of 1 ohm).

I suspect that was a 1K scale rather than 1 ohm. An ohmmeter that had a 1 ohm scale would probably have 4 leads rather than 2.

 

[Valveman]

You can get a set of leads for that motor, but you can't run a 3 phase motor if you only have single phase power at the house.

You need an ohm meter with R X 100K scale or a meg meter to check for a short to ground. But I don't think that is the problem because it would be tripping an overload or breaker.

You need to use R X 1 scale to check resistance between the legs on the motor. You don't even need to know the correct reading. The two lowest readings should always add up to the highest. Like between red/black, red/yellow, and yellow/black it should read 1, 2, and 3. Or something like 2, 4, and 6. But the two lowest readings always add up to the highest reading.

 

[horacio]

You can get a set of leads for that motor, but you can't run a 3 phase motor if you only have single phase power at the house.

You need an ohm meter with R X 100K scale or a meg meter to check for a short to ground. But I don't think that is the problem because it would be tripping an overload or breaker.

You need to use R X 1 scale to check resistance between the legs on the motor. You don't even need to know the correct reading. The two lowest readings should always add up to the highest. Like between red/black, red/yellow, and yellow/black it should read 1, 2, and 3. Or something like 2, 4, and 6. But the two lowest readings always add up to the highest reading.

Thanks Valveman. You are correct,I do not have a meter with a 100k ohms scale,is a Fluke 83 with max 40K ohms.
This pump is running me crazy and have decide to abandon the proyect and just buy a new pump,already spend money and time buying a new deluxe
control box for nothing. Yes it happens that I have 3 phase service,here the norm is 2/120 volts lines and one 180 volts line for a 220 3 phase.
I installed that service for my 10 hp air compressor years ago. A question,is dificult to install the set of leads wires in the Franklin pump and most
important are this available to purchase on line,my only way to buy item in the U.S. Thanks again.

 

[Reach4]

From http://assets.fluke.com/manuals/83_85_87smeng0500.pdf it has a range switch. I don't know if it has autoranging too, or if you manually change the range.

So when you measured the winding resistances, it looks like you could get a reading in ohms using the 400 ohm range. The second column is resolution, so 5 ohms would be expected to show as 5.0 That is much better than your average multimeter.

That 40 nS range would be for resistances higher than 40 megohm. If the meter was in the kohm range, the 5 ohms would show as 0.005. That kohm range would be indicated as k followed by the capital Omega Greek letter.

 

[Valveman]

Probably be less expensive to buy a single phase motor and use the deluxe box. With a three phase motor you will need a starter (contactor) probably like the one on the compressor. Franklin motor leads just screw in. They are easy to install.

 

[horacio]

Probably be less expensive to buy a single phase motor and use the deluxe box. With a three phase motor you will need a starter (contactor) probably like the one on the compressor. Franklin motor leads just screw in. They are easy to install.

en
Thanks Valveman,God you are super fast to answer questions. I am inclined to the grundfos 2hp/3 phase of amazon.
Someone got me interested in the 3 phase system because the many advantages over the single phase motors if you have 3 phase service like me.
But will be even better,seeems to me going Franklin-grundfos if I ca get both items for no more that what is cost the grundfos unit,about elev hds.
My other option to consider is buying a 3 hp motor and hook it to the pump I have,but that pump is more than 10 years old and maybe is about
to be as the motor out of circulation at any time. Thanks a lot for you knowlegeable advise,i do really apreciate your help.
Going to hunt for the lead wires for the Franklin 2 hp-3 phase. I know where I can buy the grundfos pump wet end,

 

[Ballvalve]

Thanks Valveman for coming to aid me. I did that test and shoes open,no resistance at all. I will try again to measure that resistance betewwn wires on Monday. At this point I am losing hope on that pump,I may have to buy a new whenever I save the money. Pumps here cost almost double
than in the U.S because shipping and customs charges. will let you know. THanks again

http://www.tuhorse.us/submersible-p...se-with-manual-automatic-water-level-control/ EDIT: WRONG LINK - BUT HAVE A LOOK THROUGH THE SITE - COMPLETE MOTOR AND PUMP 3 PHASE FOR ABOUT 400$ ..... If you have 3 phase, it would be best to use it. No more start caps and control boxes needed, [ now you have 2 control boxes to sell] just a contactor. Here is an unusually good looking pump at a very unusually low cost. Don't know much about their reliability.

 

[Ballvalve]

Here is a single phase rig with all the parts - although it might be cheaper and you can get the wire too on the tuhorse site :
3 HP 4" Submersible Well Pump Complete Set

but the distributors site has the pumps and the 3 phase rigs cheaper and with good prices on wire - 14 gauge should be plenty for that pump.
http://www.tuhorse.us/submersible-p...motor/?page_context=category&faceted_search=0

here is a link for just the Grunfos pump ends - seems like good prices and closer to Cost Rica. http://www.wwpp.co/grundfos/grundfo...s/10gpm-stainless-steel-pump-ends-only-1.html

They also have Franklin motors at good prices. I am not a dealer for Tuhorse! I am now trying to find out more about their durability.

As to myself, I would re-use the pump head [provided you are confident that it was putting out a normal flow and not bound up near when the motor died] and put a 3 phase motor on it.

I have three phase also, but my present pump is in for 25 years on single phase. If I went to 3 phase, I would certainly buy this control panel - looks like a great build and with level sensors. Amazing price. http://www.tuhorse.us/submersible-p...ntrol/?page_context=category&faceted_search=0

You are using a pretty large pump motor - Are you using a large amount of water or have a very deep well? Are you pumping sand and grit free water?

 

[horacio]

Here is a single phase rig with all the parts - although it might be cheaper and you can get the wire too on the tuhorse site :
3 HP 4" Submersible Well Pump Complete Set

but the distributors site has the pumps and the 3 phase rigs cheaper and with good prices on wire - 14 gauge should be plenty for that pump.
http://www.tuhorse.us/submersible-p...motor/?page_context=category&faceted_search=0

here is a link for just the Grunfos pump ends - seems like good prices and closer to Cost Rica. http://www.wwpp.co/grundfos/grundfo...s/10gpm-stainless-steel-pump-ends-only-1.html

They also have Franklin motors at good prices. I am not a dealer for Tuhorse! I am now trying to find out more about their durability.

As to myself, I would re-use the pump head [provided you are confident that it was putting out a normal flow and not bound up near when the motor died] and put a 3 phase motor on it.

I have three phase also, but my present pump is in for 25 years on single phase. If I went to 3 phase, I would certainly buy this control panel - looks like a great build and with level sensors. Amazing price. http://www.tuhorse.us/submersible-p...ntrol/?page_context=category&faceted_search=0

You are using a pretty large pump motor - Are you using a large amount of water or have a very deep well? Are you pumping sand and grit free water?

Thanks ballvalve for coming to help me.
You are correct on pump size,I do not need 3 hp capacity anymore because I do not irrigate an small frying banana I had before.
My direccion goes to 2hp,3 phase and I think I am going to buy the 2hp,3 phase Grundfos of Amazon, at about 1250 w ship and taxes.
The seller is Florida based and wants me to pay 70 on taxes,will look around to see if I can find it somewhere else. My shipg address in the
U.S is a shipping forwarding agency that ship my purchases to Costa Rica for me and is located in Florida and that causes me tax problems
at times. It botherss me because I do not live there nor even have set a foot in U.S territory in my life. I just learned basic English to be able
to read and write half way decent. My pump hangs at 180 feet and well depth is 240 feet. I am sure 2 HP pump is more than suficient to
supply my residential water needs. Residents,not too many,just my three little dogs and me. Thing is that with this crazy world weather ch anges
of the last 3 or so years the most precious liquid is getting scarse and that is why the well water to me is escential and place all my efforts to
maintaing the water suppply aqt the highest level of performance. We just had city water rationing for first time in the history of this city,it was
a fiasco in San Jose,the capital city and things are heading in the worsening direccion. The control box you mention looks nice,very neat functions,
but I am of the old fashion and have not too much trust on Chineese made products. So I already ordered an SD nema 1 magnetic starter with
thermal protectors. E-bay is full of them,top quality U.S made at low prices. I also imported from the U.S Schedule 80 tubes and fittings to replace
the old schedule 40 tubes and stainless steel cable to hung the pump for added security. I also built an electric winch,installed overhead to remove
and lower the pump. Friends call me ridicuolos but who cares,I enjoy working secure. I am a retired airline mechanic and security is very much
deep in my veins and my mind. Thanks again for your help and I will let you know how thing worked out for me.

 

[Ballvalve]

Thanks ballvalve for coming to help me.
You are correct on pump size,I do not need 3 hp capacity anymore because I do not irrigate an small frying banana I had before.
My direccion goes to 2hp,3 phase and I think I am going to buy the 2hp,3 phase Grundfos of Amazon, at about 1250 w ship and taxes.
The seller is Florida based and wants me to pay 70 on taxes,will look around to see if I can find it somewhere else. My shipg address in the
U.S is a shipping forwarding agency that ship my purchases to Costa Rica for me and is located in Florida and that causes me tax problems
at times. It botherss me because I do not live there nor even have set a foot in U.S territory in my life. I just learned basic English to be able
to read and write half way decent. My pump hangs at 180 feet and well depth is 240 feet. I am sure 2 HP pump is more than suficient to
supply my residential water needs. Residents,not too many,just my three little dogs and me. Thing is that with this crazy world weather ch anges
of the last 3 or so years the most precious liquid is getting scarse and that is why the well water to me is escential and place all my efforts to
maintaing the water suppply aqt the highest level of performance. We just had city water rationing for first time in the history of this city,it was
a fiasco in San Jose,the capital city and things are heading in the worsening direccion. The control box you mention looks nice,very neat functions,
but I am of the old fashion and have not too much trust on Chineese made products. So I already ordered an SD nema 1 magnetic starter with
thermal protectors. E-bay is full of them,top quality U.S made at low prices. I also imported from the U.S Schedule 80 tubes and fittings to replace
the old schedule 40 tubes and stainless steel cable to hung the pump for added security. Ihaps
also built an electric winch,installed overhead to remove
and lower the pump. Friends call me ridicuolos but who cares,I enjoy working secure. I am a retired airline mechanic and security is very much
deep in my veins and my mind. Thanks again for your help and I will let you know how thing worked out for me.

As for the pipe, I would choose the 160 psi polyethelyne and set it perhaps at 220' . You can do this by hand and without special equipment. If you are just supplying your residence, then 1 Hp or less is absolutely enough. You did not say standing water level in the well and what is the GPM of replenishment. For me and 3 dogs, 1/2 HP is enough. I have a rental property with two houses, and a well about the depth of yours - it has never in 20 years with the Myers 1/2 hp pump failed to provide enough water - and there is just a 60 gallon tank for the well. But I keep the pressure set at 45-80, so the pump is running when there is constant use, sort of like a CSV valve. I agree on the Chinese, it is a difficult decision, and of course I prefer to support the US Mfg. who usually have best results in electronic components. As for your winch, it has proven easy for me to pull pumps on poly pipe from 350' by hand without distress. Your purchase from has best warranty, but perhaps you should look at the actual supplier. Sometimes it is best buy and just as safe.

If you are airline mechanic, then you will be very detail person about the purchase. Good thing. I would go to 3 phase on my land but distance and wiring is difficult. If your well is close to your electric panel, then it is easy choice. Take a look at the Florida pump company site - they have a good selection and have been in business for many years.

 

[horacio]

As for the pipe, I would choose the 160 psi polyethelyne and set it perhaps at 220' . You can do this by hand and without special equipment. If you are just supplying your residence, then 1 Hp or less is absolutely enough. You did not say standing water level in the well and what is the GPM of replenishment. For me and 3 dogs, 1/2 HP is enough. I have a rental property with two houses, and a well about the depth of yours - it has never in 20 years with the Myers 1/2 hp pump failed to provide enough water - and there is just a 60 gallon tank for the well. But I keep the pressure set at 45-80, so the pump is running when there is constant use, sort of like a CSV valve. I agree on the Chinese, it is a difficult decision, and of course I prefer to support the US Mfg. who usually have best results in electronic components. As for your winch, it has proven easy for me to pull pumps on poly pipe from 350' by hand without distress. Your purchase from has best warranty, but perhaps you should look at the actual supplier. Sometimes it is best buy and just as safe.

If you are airline mechanic, then you will be very detail person about the purchase. Good thing. I would go to 3 phase on my land but distance and wiring is difficult. If your well is close to your electric panel, then it is easy choice. Take a look at the Florida pump company site - they have a good selection and have been in business for many years.

Thanks Ballvalve. I did no get the one from ,the Florida seller wanted me to pay sales tax and from my part no way.
I can buy from them other pumps but not the one they have on n.
They have Franklin 2HP-3 phase motors and will wait till Monday to see what matching pump end they have for.
I have 3 phase because there was a furniture factory just across the street from my house,it was closed and they offered me the two transformers
installed in a pole located about 3 feet from the sidewalk inside my property for $200 about 14 years ago. The electrical company just removed the
meter and installed outside my front iron fence. I remember having to pay $50 to a lawyer to do the transfer paperwork ,that was the greatest deal
I have made. I have 2-120 volts lines from one transformer and one line of 180 volts from the other. I can pick the 180 volts line from a junction box about 15 feet from the existing well electrical main switch. My well depth is 260 feet,standing level 150 feet and the pump hangs at 210 feet.
I had a 1.5 HP Myers pump before and did not like the performance when was using the lawn sprinkles,is when I installed the 3 HP.
Maybe it was the wrong pump, did not know much at the time and I was very busy in other things of the house. I do not know how to handle a pump removal and installation of 350 feet by hand,I am too old for that,I figured my pump may weight at least 400 lbs,that is to much for my
hands,need the little 1/3 hp motor w/ speed reduction of 80 to 1 winch that I made to handle the task easily and more secure. I ordered the CSV and payment went thru so fast that I did not see that the selller charged me Florida sales tax,experience for next time. Have to stay away from
Florida based sellers. One question to you. Can you hook an small pump to a larger motor? Like a 2 hp pump wet end to a 3HP motor?
Thanks again for your valuable information and help,I di apreciate that a lot. Best regards

 

[Valveman]

Yes you can attach a 2HP pump to a 3HP motor, but you will only get 2HP water.

 

[horacio]

Yes you can attach a 2HP pump to a 3HP motor, but you will only get 2HP water.

Thanks Valveman. By the way ,my CSV1A was shipped to me today,later on I will ask some queations to you about its installation,will like to get familiar with the issue before get to me in Costa Rica,at least 2 months from now.
I was here looking for you to ask about the 3 phase standard there,here we have 2 lines of 120 volts and one line of 180 volts,called by the electricians
high line or start line. I want to know before I buy a 3 phase Franklin pump motor if that voltage is correct. I also found this morning that Franklin
motors are now made in Mexico,kind of discourage news to me,quality is in doubt,hope I am wrong with my personal opinion. I feel bad. THANKS

 

[Reach4]

I was here looking for you to ask about the 3 phase standard there,here we have 2 lines of 120 volts and one line of 180 volts,called by the electricians
high line or start line.

I'll ask. I tried searching, and I found no reference to a system like that. Everything I found seem to say that that the power distribution voltages were similar to what you would find in the US.

How many wires carry the power to your home?

 

[Valveman]

Our 3 phase has the same kind of thing here. We call that one a "wild leg" or "high leg", it has a grounded L2. Checking between L1/L2, L2/L3, and L1/L3 you get a balanced 230 volt 3 phase. We just have to be sure and not pull off the "wild leg" to wire up anything single phase.